Cross of Iron rocks! 
It sure as hell does.
[quote=“scherpschutter, post:20, topic:2760”]We’re inevitably talking about opinions here, there are no absolutes in art. The point is that you still seem to think otherwise when you say you know better.
How would you know? I’d like to hear some good arguments. You keep saying things like ‘Peckinpah is the West’. That’s still the authenticity argument, and like I said in my first post: I thought we were passed this.[/quote]
I know otherwise, and I know better.
I suggest you go back and re-read my post in its entirety instead of taking one sentence out of context.
Of course there are absolutes in art, if you are the artist.
An artist is what he is; but few western directors in the USA considered themselves artists.
As for “the authenticity argument,” obviously, you are the one who is not "past it."
Sounds like you are using “the authenticity argument” to cut Peckinpah out, to belittle him, to render a value judgment that his westerns are not as good or not as legitimate as spaghetti westerns. It that’s what you are doing, it’s rubbish.
Richard
[quote=“Richard–W, post:18, topic:2760”]So you’re talking about opinions now, and not absolutes?
I thought we were discussing.[/quote]
Isn’t a discussion a sharing of opinions?
If not, it just becomes contradiction. And we all know where that leads…
Richard I’m with you about Peckinpah being as important for the western genre as Ford and Leone. And also being in the same league artistically as those 2. And I set these 3 directors above the other important western directors (Hawks, Mann, Daves, Boetticher, Sturges, Corbucci). Peckinpah made not as much westerns as Ford, but Leone also didn’t, but he made just like these a milestone film which influenced the genre for many years (Stagecoach, Ride the High Country, Fistful of dollars). And he made with The Wild Bunch one of the great masterpieces of the genre which stands artistically above the rest, and is the same level as OuTW. (I personally think that Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid is another similar masterpiece, but it is not as accepted by the majority)
Peckinpah’s talent was a bit diminished in later years by his excessive lifestyle and his unwillingness to make compromises. But still you see even in his weaker films that he still was a gifted director.
But Ford made also a lot of weak and forgettable films in his long career, and Leone wasted his talent after OuTW by doing only a few more films.
In the end every great director has also his limitations, he has a certain gift for a certain kind of film, and if he is clever and assertive enough he does this kind of film, develops it and if he is really good than he is able to bring it to perfection. But most fail if they try to do something very different from the things they are good in.
But Richard I’m not with you in your way of reasoning. There are no absolutes in art (neither in anything else) and what you say is an opinion, just like Scherps, just like mine, just like from one of these Criterion fellows.
We can share our opinions, and that’s why a forum can be fun.
Here’s a different list from Time Out:
http://www.timeout.com/london/feature/1005/the-50-greatest-westerns/13
McCabe & Mrs Miller at number one … won’t please many people here, I suppose
I always thought it was more interesting than fascinating (let alone entertaining)
Remarkably that Eastwood (as director) scores much higher here than at Criterion
Around 15 I would have in the top 50, but McCabe and Mrs Miller would not be one of them.
Some of the choices are strange in this more revisionist orientated list. Decision at Sundown is an interesting and underrated western, but a top 10 film? Never
And Requiescant as the only non Sergio SW? Hmm …
The Criterion list was only made by 16 members, still it shows a trend.
But Fassbinder’s Whity or Buck and the Preacher are also odd choices.
Only Le Vent d’est seems to be missing.
A list invasion/takeover is required lol
I guess those guys from Time Out voted this list, not the readers
If the number of voters is smaller, your list will count more outsiders
Gave a quick look at the Time Out list and as a major Leone fanboy, I’m disappointed to see that only two of his films made the list and where they rank (The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly before OUATW by a fairly large margin and Once Upon a Time in the West at 26 while Django is at 25?). Also, never understood the appeal of Blazing Saddles.
GB&U and OUATITW at number 10 and 26 respectively are inexcusable. Requiscant higher than Great Silence is just Weird…I wonder how many of the people voting for that poll actually saw it (or many SWs other than the Leone ones for that matter) Josey Wales and Dead Man in the top 10 are a joke.
To me Blazing Saddles may be an all time top 10 comedy
I would not take that list more serious than the top 250 films of all time at IMDB.
With a few exceptions I think the top 100 of that list is pretty decent… Nothing that caught my attention like this one.
IMDB Top 50:
http://www.imdb.com/chart/western
It has more voters than any other list, so it’s probably the most representative list of them all
It’s often said that the IMDB lists are dominated by the preferences of young voters, but with films like The Wind, The Gold Rush, The Ox-Bow Incident and The treasure of the Sierra Madre in the top of the list, you wouldn’t say that is the case here.
[quote=“scherpschutter, post:35, topic:2760”]IMDB Top 50:
http://www.imdb.com/chart/western
It has more voters than any other list, so it’s probably the most representative list of them all
It’s often said that the IMDB lists are dominated by the preferences of young voters, but with films like The Wind, The Gold Rush, The Ox-Bow Incident and The treasure of the Sierra Madre in the top of the list, you wouldn’t say that is the case here.[/quote]
Agreed the western TOP 50 at IMDB is reasonable, but as I indicated the same is hardly the case with their top 250 all time greatest film list.
Personally there are only about 5 films in the top 50 of it I would have in my own top 50.
[quote=“Dorado, post:36, topic:2760”]Agreed the western TOP 50 at IMDB is reasonable, but as I indicated the same is hardly the case with their top 250 all time greatest film list.
Personally there are only about 5 films in the top 50 of it I would have in my own top 50.[/quote]
In their all time 250 this domination of young voters will be more important, I presume
About 9 I would have in a top 50 from this list. Not enough euro westerns on these lists for my liking. Not a great lover of lists though.
Well the only one that counts and its representative its the SWDB list, that’s the relieble one, and I’m an accountant so I 'm used to choose the best and more relieble info to analyse ;D
Which reminds me of something …