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401

I did some research and SAR/DJ does have a point; the bulk of the Winnetou movies were co-productions with Italy, even though the main contributing countries were Germany and Yugoslavia. Since there is no litmus test to make out if a western is a spaghetti western, we have to rely on definitions; that’s no problem, as long as we realize that they are just that: definitions.

Apparently Weisser counts 558 SWs, using his definition (unknown to me); the Italian writer Casadio counts 451, accepting only those films for which a) an Italian production company was dominant AND b) that were directed by an Italian. Using his definition, El Precio de un Hombre should be excluded. I guess most people wouldn’t agree with that. I like Casadio and his book, but to me EL PRECIO is definitely spaghetti, albeit paella. But paella is no spaghetti, so we’re in that grey area here.

Personally, I don’t think of the Winnetou movies as spaghetti westerns. They certainly created the cultural context in which the spaghetti western could flourish, but I think the feeling is completely different. Old Shatterhand (let alone Winnetou) cannot be imagined in any sort of western made by a italian director and produced dominantly by an italian company between '64 and '70, not in a revenge movie, not in a Civil War movie, not in a Gold Rush movie, not in a Mexican Revolution movie. The only character from the Winnetou films that has some spaghetti value (if I may say so) is Sam Hawkins, in the books Shatterhand’s teacher, in the films more his side-kick.

But this is all very personal. If SD wants to include some Karl May movies, that is his good right.
Still: please SD, take it easy (Eagles, not too loud), we’re talking about people’s lists of favourite films, not about possible reasons to risk WW III or anything like that. It’s supposed to be fun out here.
I think the problem is academic anyway, since few people will include the Karl May movies, so they most probably won’t ever make it to our common Top 20.

402

[quote=“scherpschutter, post:401, topic:190”]I did some research and SAR/DJ does have a point; the bulk of the Winnetou movies were co-productions with Italy, even though the main contributing countries were Germany and Yugoslavia. Since there is no litmus test to make out if a western is a spaghetti western, we have to rely on definitions; that’s no problem, as long as we realize that they are just that: definitions.

Apparently Weisser counts 558 SWs, using his definition (unknown to me); the Italian writer Casadio counts 451, accepting only those films for which a) an Italian production company was dominant AND b) that were directed by an Italian. Using his definition, El Precio de un Hombre should be excluded. I guess most people wouldn’t agree with that. I like Casadio and his book, but to me EL PRECIO is definitely spaghetti, albeit paella. But paella is no spaghetti, so we’re in that grey area here.

Personally, I don’t think of the Winnetou movies as spaghetti westerns. They certainly created the cultural context in which the spaghetti western could flourish, but I think the feeling is completely different. Old Shatterhand (let alone Winnetou) cannot be imagined in any sort of western made by a italian director and produced dominantly by an italian company between '64 and '70, not in a revenge movie, not in a Civil War movie, not in a Gold Rush movie, not in a Mexican Revolution movie. The only character from the Winnetou films that has some spaghetti value (if I may say so) is Sam Hawkins, in the books Shatterhand’s teacher, in the films more his side-kick.

But this is all very personal. If SD wants to include some Karl May movies, that is his good right.
Still: please SD, take it easy (Eagles, not too loud), we’re talking about people’s lists of favourite films, not about possible reasons to risk WW III or anything like that. It’s supposed to be fun out here.
I think the problem is academic anyway, since few people will include the Karl May movies, so they most probably won’t ever make it to our common Top 20.[/quote]

Thank you Scherp the above posting from you is well written, researched and fair.

I do not argue just for argument’s sake and did remove the USA Westerns much as I
love them very much. But you have to stand up for what is right and what makes sense.

As you and I have said there are many grey areas and at the end it is MY TOP 20 :wink:

Take it easy good Eagles yes and I will be back soon for more SWs fun and games.

Grazie Scherp noi Italiani dobbiamo soffrire molto per avere un po di pace ;D

403

According to Bruckner El precio de un hombre was co produced by an italian company named Discobolo Film. So it’s a Spaghetti for any definition.

Bruckner also makes a difference between SWs and Euro Westerns. And he includes the solely spanish productions in the 2nd group, but that are not so much (like Cut-Throat’s Nine, the most famous of them).

Again. I don’t see a reason to differ between spaghetti and paella.

My definition:
SWs are made by mainly italian and/or spanish crews in the 60s and 70s.
With a few exceptions like french films (Une corde, un colt which was made mainly by a french crew) or some films made in the years since then.

404

[quote=“stanton, post:403, topic:190”]According to Bruckner El precio de un hombre was co produced by an italian company named Discobolo Film. So it’s a Spaghetti for any definition.

Bruckner also makes a difference between SWs and Euro Westerns. And he includes the solely spanish productions in the 2nd group, but that are not so much (like Cut-Throat’s Nine, the most famous of them).

Again. I don’t see a reason to differ between spaghetti and paella.

My definition:
SWs are made by mainly italian and/or spanish crews in the 60s and 70s.
With a few exceptions like french films (Une corde, un colt which was made mainly by a french crew) or some films made in the years since then.[/quote]

Interesting analysis Stanton and clearly Production Companies in Germany/Yugoslavia
could have similar strong claims about their Magnificent Cult Films being Spaghettis.

I would like to Propose a very : SIMPLE and UNEQUIVOCAL Definition :

“SPAGHETTI WESTERNS” are Westerns Produced and MADE IN EUROPE By Europeans

"EURO WESTERNS " are Westerns Produced and MADE IN EUROPE By Europeans

"USA WESTERNS " are Westerns Produced and MADE IN USA By Americans

"Other Westerns " are Westerns Produced and MADE IN REST OF THE WORLD

This above is the ONLY CORRECT SYSTEM THAT MAKES IT SIMPLE AND ERROR FREE.

The term “spaghetti” western is a DEROGATORY and INSULTING TERM anyway which
was given by Non Europeans to describe the “pasta” or “Italian” westerns which we
know are in fact CO-PRODUCTIONS between Italy/France/Germany/Spain/Yugoslavia

A better term would be EURO WESTERNS ::slight_smile: :wink:

405

[quote=“SARTANA DJANGO, post:404, topic:190”]“SPAGHETTI WESTERNS” are Westerns Produced and MADE IN EUROPE By Europeans

"EURO WESTERNS " are Westerns Produced and MADE IN EUROPE By Europeans

The term “spaghetti” western is a DEROGATORY and INSULTING TERM anyway which
was given by Non Europeans to describe the “pasta” or “Italian” westerns which we
know are in fact CO-PRODUCTIONS between Italy/France/Germany/Spain/Yugoslavia

A better term would be EURO WESTERNS ::slight_smile: ;)[/quote]
So you really want to remove the “spaghetti western” term completely ? And thereby putting stuff like the Danish (Potato) westerns in the same pot as stuff like Django and The Mercenary. I don’t think anyone wants that :slight_smile:

406

The German Winnetou movies came before the Italian westerns in the early 60s, I think they actually got the nickname sauerkraut-westerns.

You could also of course call them Eurowesterns, but spaghetti-westerns they are not.

In the beginning the term spaghetti-western was indeed a somewhat degrading term for these Italian/Spanish low-budget movies shot in Spain, but nowadays no one thinks of it this way.

It’s good to have either the term Eurowestern or the term Spaghetti-Western and separate the two, but there surely are grey areas sometimes.

407

[quote=“stanton, post:403, topic:190”]According to Bruckner El precio de un hombre was co produced by an italian company named Discobolo Film. So it’s a Spaghetti for any definition.

Bruckner also makes a difference between SWs and Euro Westerns. And he includes the solely spanish productions in the 2nd group, but that are not so much (like Cut-Throat’s Nine, the most famous of them).

Again. I don’t see a reason to differ between spaghetti and paella.

My definition:
SWs are made by mainly italian and/or spanish crews in the 60s and 70s.
With a few exceptions like french films (Une corde, un colt which was made mainly by a french crew) or some films made in the years since then.[/quote]

I know EL PRECIO … was co-produced by the italians, the point (for Casadio and some other scholars) was that the Spanish influence was predominant, so they call(ed) those westerns Paella westerns. Predominantly German westerns were indeed called Sauerkraut westerns (never heard of Danish westerns, interesting, tell us more about them!).

I’m not a definition freak and have no problems in accepting Spanish or French or even British westerns as spaghetti westerns as long as they have that special feeling of the Italian westerns, made in the sixties. So EL PRECIO …, UNE CORDE, UN COLT : yes. VIVA MARIA, WINNETOU : no. SHALAKO : dunno . But of course this is making a mess of every sensible definition. You’d have to use the term “EURO WESTERN with a certain Italian feeling”, a rather vague definition, I presume. And you could well come up with the question why the hell I don’t accept American westerns with a certain italian feeling, like Hang 'm High, when I’m so lenient? I would have to think about that.

And yes, SD is right about the term “Spaghetti western”: it was a derogatory term and is still felt like one by some Italians (I read a discussion on an Italian forum some time ago) who prefer the term “western all’italiana” (western italian style). But most Italians have adopted the term and the most important Italian website has it in its name.

408

There is no official definition so I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion on what they think a SW is.

My definiton of SW is any italian and/or spanish production after Fistful of dollars (the first SW in my opinion)

And yes, this includes some of the later Karl May pictures.

The Winnetou films may not really fit the “feel” of a true SW, but if it fits within a persons criteria than who are we to judge?

For example, I have previously posted on reasons why I don’t feel “Duck you Sucker” should be classified as a western. I’m sure all of you would disagree with me, but I’ll stick by my opinion. I have my reasons.

409

Of course everyone has a right to any definition but where is the limit? Can I vote The Terminator for example if I consider it as a SW? I think no. And in the case of vote the nominees should be same for everyone. I mean we can vote Donald Duck for the president but it ain’t gonna happen even if he got the most votes. Ok, maybe those few titles won’t be in the top 20 anyway but they still affect the final results a little. They kinda eat points from ‘real’ spags.

I’m really not that serious about this vote but in theory I think I have a point. :slight_smile:

410

Very well argued , interesting discussions/information from everyone.

I should make it clear that I am NOT NOT NOT : proposing doing away with the term

Spaghetti Westerns

I was only suggesting, speculating and making some historical analysis .

To me Spaghetti Westerns = Euro Westerns = GREAT FILMS

I like to have a “vague” and “inclusive” definition so that we have MORE FILMS included.

Avatar - Yes if the Danish (potato) westerns came in they could compete
at the bottom of the SWs favourites , with Trinity "slapstick " :’(

Scherp - Another well researched, explained analysis which makes good
points. I agree WINNETOU/STEWART GRANGER/LEX BARKER is
not an Obvious SW :o but fans like me love these Winnetou
films so much , Germany saw/loved them in their millions, so :smiley:

Silvanito - Again what you say is well thought out but as I said above
if a SW fan considers German/Yugoslavia/Italy Winnetou/Karl May
as SWs , then they should come in otherwise we have a major
void and the TOP 20 is decided by default and by outsiders.

Mr Challenge - You are a very fair, well informed and thoughtful poster.
I appreciate your confirmation that it is down to the individual
SW fan , what he wants to classify as a SW.
Not everybody is against you on “Duck you sucker” 71, because
I also felt that it was more of a WAR/Adventure Film rather than
a western and I was not too keen on it anyway.

Anyway I hope to list my TOP 21-40 soon and to include some greats I left out . :smiley:

411

Veda you have made a good point also.

When the posters said that each voter picks his SWs that means by common sense
and minimum intelligence that they have to be WESTERNS at least !!

I loved the Terminator and always enjoy Arnold Schwarzenegger in films/politics :o but
if somebody suggested something not even a western, or Donald Duck they would
have no legs to stand on and be hounded off the forum for “incompetence” no doubt.

And yes each SW fan must influence the TOP 20 because thats called democracy.

Finally I have shown both you/Bad lt and the forum that there are

NO “real” spaghettis as even the most obvious ITALIAN SWs : Fistful Of Dollars

are CO - EUROPEAN Productions !!! The Mercenary 68, TGS 68 etc etc I have posted

I know what people mean by Spaghetti Films and I love those dearly but we must be
ACCURATE and FACTUAL. ::slight_smile:

412

In Germany these films are called mainly Italo Westerns.
And believe me, nobody in Germany would call the Karl May films Italo Westerns. Never, because they don’t correspond to the idea the audience has from a typical SW.

413

[quote=“stanton, post:412, topic:190”]In Germany these films are called mainly Italo Westerns.
And believe me, nobody in Germany would call the Karl May films Italo Westerns. Never, because they don’t correspond to the idea the audience has from a typical SW.[/quote]maybe we would not call Karl May movies Italian ones because they are german, even if other countries were involved in production. But they are Eurowesterns.

I like the term spaghettis, it is the best to take something that was used to “blacklist” something and take it as the opposite. For me spaghetti does not equal Euro-western.

But for me the comedy stuff like trinity is neither spaghetti material. But discussion about this are quite hard.
I guess if we all would watch our tone, this would be better. Sartana Django throws some provocative theses, especially when talking about something else(how again did he get the curve to dissing james dean somewhere else).
So we can agree that we do not agree on a clear definition.
By the way i guess i am still at least 50 movies away from compelling a top 20 list, and i think it is refreshing to see some new movies in them, like Sartana Django did.
My unusual top 20 film so far would be Tepepa, which didn´t get many votes. Or is it a zapata and not valid for voting?

414

I think we’re talking about two different things here, the definition of a spaghetti-western and what to vote for in the top 20 list.

I have no objections if SD wants to include some Winnetou-movies in his list, or if someone else decides to have a kebab-western in his or her list!

We now have all these different Eurowesterns in the database so why the hell not?

Second, most spaghetti-westerns are co-productions between Italy and other countries, so this isn’t the main point.

The main point is that all key personnel like director, producer, composer etc, most of the time were Italians.

This is Italian films even if they were made as co-productions.

Italian westerns is also by far the largest group of Eurowesterns.

So we have “Spaghetti-Western”, made by Italians in financial co-production with Spanish/German/French etc movie companies.

Then we have “Eurowestern” that includes all the rest of westerns made in Europe by non-Italians: Winnetou, Viva Maria!, Paella, Kebab, East-German, English, Swedish, Danish etc.

And finally some “grey area” movies where the definition is unclear.

“Spaghetti-Western” also includes a lot of different types of westerns so the actual style is really not important, it could be everything from serious political western to Trinity slapstick western, doesn’t matter!

The style of Italian westerns changed over the years, but they are all spaghetti-westerns!

415

SD TOP 20 ITALIAN “SPAGHETTI WESTERN” FILMS IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE

  1. GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY 1966 Clint eastwood , Lee Van Cleef

  2. FISTFUL OF DOLLARS 1964 Clint Eastwood , Marianne Koch

  3. ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST 1968 Henry Fonda , Charles Bronson

  4. FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE 1967 Clint Eastwood , Lee Van Cleef

  5. KILLER ADIOS 1968 Peter Lee Lawrence , Rosalba Neri

  6. MERCENARY/PROFESSIONAL GUN 1968 Franco Nero , Giovanna Ralli

  7. GARRINGO 1969 Peter Lee Lawrence , Anthony Steffen

  8. KILLER CALIBER 32 1967 Peter Lee Lawrence , Helene Chanel

  9. EL ROJO 1966 Richard Harrison , Susan Scott

  10. DEATH RIDES A HORSE 1968 Lee Van Cleef , John Philip Law

  11. CEMETERY WITHOUT CROSSES 1968 Michele Mercier . Robert Hossein

  12. IF YOU MEET SARTANA PRAY 1968 Gianni Garko , Klaus Kinski

  13. MAN CALLED SLEDGE 1970 James Garner . Dennis Weaver

  14. VENGEANCE / JOKO 1968 Richard Harrison , Spela Rozin

  15. JOHNNY YUMA 1967 Mark Damon , Rosalba Neri

  16. DAYS OF VIOLENCE 1968 Peter Lee Lawrence , Beba Loncar

  17. A BULLET FOR THE GENERAL 1967 Lou Castel , Gian Maria Volonte

  18. FORGOTTEN PISTOLERO 1969 Leonard Mann , Luciana Paluzzi

  19. MASSACRE TIME 1966 Franco Nero , George Hilton

  20. THIS MAN CAN’T DIE 1968 Guy Madison , Lucienne Bridou

I have compiled this TOP 20 to COMPLY with this Forum’s definition of SPAGHETTIS :o
If the forum powers want to count my TOP 20 , please use this TOP 20 above thanks.

I hope to prepare a TOP 20 of WIDER EURO WESTERNS & USA WESTERNS & more :smiley:
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416

Thanks for the new one.

417

You are welcome, I love to list Top 20 s it reminds me of all the Classic Sws/Westerns.

418

SD TOP 21 to 50 ITALIAN “SPAGHETTI WESTERNS” IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE

  1. ONE AGAINST ONE … NO MERCY 1968 Peter Lee Lawrence Eduardo Fajardo

  2. EXECUTION 1968 John Richardson Mimmo Palmara

  3. DJANGO 1966 Franco Nero Loredana Nushiak

  4. JOHN THE BASTARD 1967 John Richardson Claudio Camaso

  5. DEATH ON A HIGH MOUNTAIN 1969 Peter Lee Lawrence Agnes Spaak

  6. SARTANA THE GRAVEDIGGER 1969 Gianni Garko Klaus Kinski

  7. NO ROOM TO DIE 1969 Anthony Steffen Nicoletta Macchiavelli

  8. JOE FIND A PLACE TO DIE 1969 Jeffrey Hunter Pascale Petit

  9. TRAIN FOR DURANGO 1968 Anthony Steffen Mark Damon

  10. RINGO AND HIS GOLDEN PISTOL 1966 Mark Damon Valeria Fabrizi

  11. TIME OF VULTURES 1967 George Hilton Frank Wolff
    WRATH OF GOD 1968 Brett Halsey Wayde Preston

  12. LONG RIDE FROM HELL 1967 Steve Reeves Wayde Preston
    GOD MADE THEM…I KILL THEM 1968 Dean Reed Agnes Spaak

  13. 7 DOLLARS ON THE RED 1966 Anthony Steffen Elisa Montes

  14. ULTIMATE GUNFIGHTER 1967 Peter Lee Lawrence Christina Galbo
    WHEN SATAN GRIPS THE COLT 1968 Peter Lee Lawrence Aldo Sambrell

  15. THE GREAT SILENCE 1968 Jean L. Trintignant Klaus Kinski

  16. ARIZONA COLT RETURNS 1970 Anthony Steffen Marcella Michelangeli

  17. REQUIESCANT /KILL AND PRAY 1968 Mark Damon Lou Castel
    I WANT HIM DEAD 1968 Craig Hill Lea Massari

  18. BLOOD AT SUNDOWN/1000$ ON 1966 Gianni Garko Anthony Steffen

  19. CHUCK MOLL /UNHOLY FOUR 1969 Leonard Mann Evelyn Stewart
    DJANGO KILL 1967 Tomas Milian Ray Lovelock

  20. BURY THEM DEEP 1968 Craig Hill Ettore Manni
    TWO GUNS AND A COWARD 1968 Anthony Steffen Richard Wyler

  21. TRAMPLERS 1966 Gordon Scott Joseph Cotten
    STRANGER IN PASO BRAVO 1968 Anthony Steffen Julia Rubini

  22. DAY OF ANGER 1967 Lee Van Cleef Giuliano Gemma

  23. COMPANEROS 1970 Franco Nero Jack Palance

  24. BLACK JACK 1968 Robert Woods Lucienne Bridou

  25. BIG GUNDOWN 1966 Lee Van Cleef Thomas Milian

  26. SEWER RATS 1974 Richard Harrison Dagmar Lassender

  27. MATALO 1967 Lou Castel Claudia Gravy

  28. DEATH WALKS IN LAREDO 1966 Thomas Hunter Enrico M. Salerno

  29. A GUN FOR 100 GRAVES 1968 Peter Lee Lawrence , John Ireland

  30. CRY FOR REVENGE 1968 Anthony Steffen Mark Damon

Many Many Many More Great SWs are outside my Top 50 but are still much loved :smiley:

419

By the way, has anyone re-arranged the top20 for a while? I think there’s quite many lists that hasn’t been counted yet.

420

@ SD, Top 50

Salve,

Apart from Peter Lee Lawrence there are quite a few surprises.

  1. Poor results for the two other Sergios (only one Corbucci in the first 20)

  2. Low spots for films like I GIORNI DELL’IRA/Day of Anger, COMPAñEROS, LA RESA DEI CONTI/The Big Gundown, so the more restrained, reflexive ones. (Are they too reflexive, too intellectual maybe?)

  3. High spots for films like VENGEANGE, EXECUTION and FIND A PLACE TO DIE that have very few supporters. Vengeance is well-shot but is a sluggish would be gothic SW with a nearly interminable finale set in a grotto, Find a place to die is only saved by a decent performance by good old Jeffrey Hunter and a very sensual scene in a saloon (when the title song is sung), otherwise it’s a hodge podge of one or two good scenes, poor action and no acting at all (that French actress).

Of course, everybody has a right to his own preferences and my opinion is not better than anybody elses, let alone yours, but it definitely is a remarkable list and (again: apart from Peter Lee) and it would be interesting to know why you made these specific choices.