I know you would object to being one of the innocent death row inmates executed :’(
But I see the overall picture and to me all the NUMEROUS Killer’s victims were innocent
Still given Bill’s USA figures/facts the subject is very debatable and all views I respect.
NOW where are the Forumites that SUPPORT the death penalty ? Come out please :D[/quote]
Yes all the victims were innocent that is true. So the question is what is a good punishment? No victim is helped if the criminal is killed. The satisfaction over this will not bring the victim back.
This would also mean that someone who steals needs to get something stolen from him(his hand maybe). So i hope you never used any bootleg film, because then we would have to take your hand away.
A legal system has to ignore feelings like revenge, and I think death penalty is only there to serve in giving people this feeling. So as a state it is not good to have it in my mind.
And I don´t care about the criminals(aiming at your arguement that most anti capital punishment guys are those “he had a bad childhood” hippies; isnt that what you meant? Again you try to imply something that has never been mentioned in this thread, what´s next robert de niro again???)
; just a state that thinks it can decide over life and death of its inhabitants is not one i would like to live in. Because they decide what a criminal is; so if you live in the wrong country that could be something else. Ask opposite politicians in instable states.
NO Valenciano I think you are confusing the ISLAM LAW or a bad interpretation of Islam
regarding chopping off the hand for stealing. Thats nothing to do with me, Steal=Jail.
We are talking here of EVIL KILLERS who have killed/raped/mugged CONTINUOUSLY &
if you or any soft hearted people spare them/release them , they WILL KILL/RAPE again
The State for example TEXAS does NOT KILL ANYONE as such the state acting on LEGAL
Statutory Law carries out a LEGAL/DESERVED Death Sentence on behalf of the people
Do you know how many MILLIONS OF CRIMES/VICTIMS EXTRA there HAPPEN because :
EITHER the court gives the Criminal Killer BAIL OR
The State Fails to execute the Evil Killers FAILS TO EXECUTE
If the state KEPT IN CUSTODY or EXECUTED the DEATH Penalty cases
MILLIONS of Crimes/ VICTIMS due to RE-OFFENDING ON RELEASE would NOT HAPPEN.
I can quote FACTS of 1000s & 1000s of cases where the serial Criminal is spared/let out
to COMMIT CRIME after Crime, murder after murder, rape after rape.
SAVE the VICTIMS , STOP Further Crimes. OBEY The LAW. Keep them in Jail/Execute
I’m actually doing a masters in Criminology right now. I have to say that both sides of the arguement have merit. Right now there is no right answer. Jail and the death penalty have been proven not to be very effective in reducing crime, neither are welfare state institutions very effective. But its the best system we got. Until someone can think of a better alternative we’ll have to make due with keeping dangerous high risk of repeat offenders in jail, and rehabilitating minor offenders even though we know it doesn’t really work. Prison only gives temporary relief in keeping dangerous people off the streets, it is not a permanent solution. A permanent solution is something we are without right now. The best is for the government to step up in implementing programs that insure that everyone grows up in a happy household and feel a part of the community, but that is almost impossible. Much of the street crime can be sourced from growing up in broken homes, poverty stricken environments, institutional anomie etc…but of course personal factors are at play as well.
Right now I think an even bigger concern is that of white collar and corporate crime. These evil corporations are commiting crime that cost even more harm to society than the conventional criminals, and they are getting away with it. Yet the people in suit and tie don’t suffer the same stigma as the so called “street thugs”. And even when they are caught they only get a slap on the wrist because they are rich enough to hire the best lawyers.
Corporate crime pollutes are air and water, steals money from the government and the public while hiding behind an accountant’s notebook, bribery, coverups, embezzlement, corruption, tax fraud, insider trading, anti trust violations, lack of worker safety and compensation, labor exploitation in developing countries, marketing unsafe products, etc… and these guys are living in mansions and our relaxing with a martini in their 2 million dollar yacht, the luxury that street thugs and rapists don’t have.
Just look at how much grief and ruined lives the Enron scandal cost. If anyone is familiar with the Erin Brockovich vs. PG and E case knows that many people became seriously ill. When a street thug goes on a murdering spree, he kills maybe a few people at the most, but corporate crime effects hundreds. Hundreds of people die every year in the workplace because the companies they work for neglect worker safety. This may not be murder, but its the same result: PEOPLE ARE DYING. No my friends, the REAL danger to society is corporate crime.
Ok SD, since I’m a born and bred Texan, you’re going to have to clarify your last response. Not quite sure what you just said. We do have the death penalty as I’m sure you all know. As a matter of fact, this state executes more convicted killers than any other state in the nation. I’m not sure but I think we execute more than all of the other states in the US combined. Check me on that. If not, its close. - Who knows if the death penalty is a deterrent? We still have murders just like everyone else. - A guy I went to school with brutally raped and murdered a young housewife when he was about 18 years of age. No doubt he did it, he had overwhelming evidence against him. - Death penalty; lethal injection - I always felt his own family was glad to be rid of him because of the disgrace he brought to them. I know he was one crazy SOB. - Me? I’m not sure about the death penalty…but I do know one thing, valenciano; I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else in the world but Texas.
Relax pardner , what I said was that the EXECUTIONS In Texas is NOT State Killing
but a statutory LEGAL CORRECT punishment/death sentence carried out for the PEOPLE.
Once you have EXECUTED the Repeat Killer you have JUSTICE & SAFETY for future victims. Ace I am a big fan of TEXAN things (Bush ? ;D) and I would love to hear more.
@ Col. DM
Thanks for posting that detailed, informative & well analyzed piece on death/corporate.
I have to AGREE with you concerning the scale/magnitude and seriousness of major
corporate/business/rich/powerful CRIMES / LAW Violations against the poor/oppressed
We must also beware of giving too much power to the state/police because that power
can be abused, there could be corruption or data loss or crimes from within and so on.
What concerns me most is NOT “corporate crime” but STREET MUGGERS/ KILLERS ??? :’(
and these are the MURDERING SCUM I would like EXECUTED FIRST OF ALL.
The reason I feel so strongly about STREET MUGGERS/KILLERS is that they will
rape/assault/rob/Kill ANYBODY young or old that happens to PASS BY on the street.
We have seen a poor estate agent approached by street scum youths & stabbed to
death for a Few banknotes, a young lawyer on his way home again stabbed by scum.
These Street MUGGERS VERMIN have no morals, no humanity, no conscience and it
could be you COL DM walking by, it could be me, it could be Phil’s 3 daughters & KILL.
It makes me sick when street criminals try to play the “race card” or any other excuse
when they are caught and jailed for their crimes. Nobody fills the jails with Latinos
or Afros or Gypsies because of their “race” but BECAUSE of the CRIMES THEY COMMIT.
If the muggings and robberies in Dallas were carried out 90% by ESKIMOS then the cops would investigate, arrest , prosecute & the courts would JAIL 90% ESKIMOS.
I should say that I have NEVER been mugged or assaulted or robbed or worse but
have had 1 attempted burglary. Nonetheless I am passionate for JUSTICE & VICTIMS.
I never said its correct to let offenders out again, ever heard of life long imprisonment???
Most people with death sentence even have to be on death row for a very long time. So they could escape there as well.
You accuse all anti death penalty people of being liberals who just wanna let everybody out after a short time. That is just not true. I dont want a serial killer to be released ever again, but to let him kill, no neither.
@ Ace high, sorry did not want to offend you, but does it not bother you that your state might kill a person wrongly? I mean i am not 100% easy with all the laws of my country germany, but my scepticism of the legal system(i.e. people with more money get better attorney and less punishment etc.) is so high i would not want the decision to be final.
And to the street thugs: Killing them all will not stop the underlying sociial problems. It is not a real “race card” being played. Most of these crimes result from social problems, of course the offenders take the easy way out, but not all can become rappers or basketball players.
But I think this is a different topic, serial killers and rapists often come from a total different social background, and they are not scared from death penalty.
No offense taken, valenciano. We’re all brothers and sisters of the great Spaghetti Western, right? I do worry a little about “the wrong person executed,” but not much. I am more concerned when a killer is executed that may not have a very high i.q.(retarded.) That seems to happen some. I mean, who’s to say if a person is competant mentally to stand trial? – I also DO believe the death penalty is a deterrent to a certain extent. I believe it stops murders sometimes. Example; the shooting of a store clerk during a robbery. I’ve heard too many criminals say they’ve spared lives because they remembered “they were in Texas” at the time of the crime. So again, I’m not sure where I stand about all that. Too complicated for me and that’s why I go to places like the SW database forum; to get a better world-view from you cats… ;D
Yes Ace the greater the punishment (death) the more likely it is to DETER.
TEXAS is a state I ADMIRE because from the governor downwards Texas has regard for
VICTIMS and the WEAK , NOT some excuse ridden sympathy crusade for the CRIMINAL.
I dont put my hand on the hot stove because I get burned, similar you dont kill if you die.
@ Valenciano
You do make some valid points concerning executing the “innocent” and I accept that
you do not want to “let criminals out” but prefer life in jail to a death sentence.
This is an eternal debate with strong arguments/passions on both sides and I suppose
it is a matter of each person’s conscience, maybe religious beliefs.
I can say that NOBODY On this SW board has SUFFERED a loved one raped/killed
so when Linda Bowman (mother of raped/killed Sally) asks for a DEATH PENALTY then
all of us NOT affected, not knowing her pain /loss should LISTEN TO HER & other victims.
I think we may get back to wonderful SW as this important subject has been covered
[quote=“Lindberg, post:47, topic:831”]We all die eventually[/quote][quote=“Lindberg, post:49, topic:831”]Don’t forget to drink a lot of tea and beer as well
[/quote]
NO Lindberg I am still alive, fighting and “maximum security” ;D
Your smilies are alive and amusing :o I might look into them …soon…
[quote=“SARTANA DJANGO, post:53, topic:831”]Yes Ace the greater the punishment (death) the more likely it is to DETER.
TEXAS is a state I ADMIRE because from the governor downwards Texas has regard for
VICTIMS and the WEAK , NOT some excuse ridden sympathy crusade for the CRIMINAL.
I dont put my hand on the hot stove because I get burned, similar you dont kill if you die.[/quote]
In Texas, as in many other States/Countries where the death penalty is used, the executed criminals are disproportionatly from poorer, less educated backgrounds. If you look at the statistics for those tried for capital offences, the poorer you are, the higher the liklihood of your being executed. Is it justice when the application of the death penalty is decided not by the crime commited but by how good an attorney you can afford?
You make a valid point because there is no doubt that money/power does buy you the
best lawyers, opens doors, influences friends etc It can get you better jails or freedom.
On death row in Texas I have to say that the INMATES awaiting execution are there
NOT because they are poor/black/latino/gay/gypsy/immigrants/disabled etc but ONLY
BECAUSE THEY HAVE KILLED/RAPED & the LAW has been applied for the DEATH PENALTY.
Having said the above you are correct that if an inmate happens to be “innocent” but poor /minority, then his chances of justice are usually reduced then if he was rich $$$$.
But I suppose that happens in all walks of life : Wealth/Connections do open all doors :’(
ELIOT SPITZER once known as SHERIFF Of Wall Street is CAUGHT with VICE Girls
FBI tapes recorded an excited, heavy breathing Eliot arranging payment $4300 ? for
the Se-xual “services” of 22 Year old Prostitute “Kirsten” Petite brunette, 22, big tits
Eliot Spitzer has RESIGNED as Gov’nor of New York after being exposed as “number 9”
a Client of Online High “Class” ??? Call Girl Vice Ring. Eliot Paid $80000 Plus for the SEX
QUESTION FOR DEBATE :
Is it FAIR / CORRECT / RIGHT that a Man who has achieved much before in LAW/ ORDER
is now ridiculed, joked about, humiliated and Forced to give up office in shame ??
ELIOT SPITZER “Ladies Man But At Some Cost $$$$$$$$”
As far as I’m concerned his private life is his own affair. If he wants to pay $5k for a shag it’s his own decision. It suggests to me, however, that he is a bit stupid and vastly overpaid but that is neither here nor there.
But let’s not lose sight of why he has had to resign. It is not because he is morally corrupt, but because he previously positioned himself as morally unblemished. You have to hear his ‘integrity road’ speech to know what I mean.
At the end of the day, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you want people to believe you are a man of moral integrity you have to back your words up with your deeds. In that light, I believe it is right that he has stepped down.
[quote=“Phil H, post:58, topic:831”]As far as I’m concerned his private life is his own affair. If he wants to pay $5k for a shag it’s his own decision. It suggests to me, however, that he is a bit stupid and vastly overpaid but that is neither here nor there.
But let’s not lose sight of why he has had to resign. It is not because he is morally corrupt, but because he previously positioned himself as morally unblemished. You have to hear his ‘integrity road’ speech to know what I mean.
At the end of the day, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you want people to believe you are a man of moral integrity you have to back your words up with your deeds. In that light, I believe it is right that he has stepped down.[/quote]
Well argued summary of what has happened.
I was very impressed with Eliot Spitzer’s anti crime/ anti corruption crusade when he
was attorney general and supported his progress to the governor position of New York
The downfall is sudden, tragic and unexpected but I agree is a MATTER OF TRUST :o.
Eliot’s sordid Vice Girls Obsessions have betrayed his family, his office and himself ???
Being a Hillary Clinton backer against Obama I am also sick for the damage done to her
It goes to show that the public can hardly trust any politician as “clean or worthy” :’(
The money paid to powerful politicians/ignorant footballers is also OBSCENE when you
think that there are starving people in Africa. ???
, what I said was that the EXECUTIONS In Texas is NOT State Killing
I might look into them …soon… 