Hey!
I bet you didn’t know that I share that opinion, did you, Tom?
;D
I have surpassed 300 views of this one, now.
My all-time favorite Spaghetti Western!
just watched this one again, love it…ok some questions-ive heard that manco means “no hands”… clint wears a protective gauntlet on his shooting hand … only fights with his non shooting hand … indio has manco put on the gauntlet before he starts beating on him …whats up with the hand motif??? has anyone noticed that tavern is spelled tabern ,its the scene where mortimer kills the hunchback,was this intentional ?
My favourite of the Leone’s as well. WARNING ‘MAY CONTAIN BULLSHIT’ ALERT … I have a theory …
After reading a quote from Frayling’s STDWD book in which Leone stated something along the lines of “The flashbacks are Freudian”, - sometime ago I wrote a bunch of stuff about how much Freud can be ‘read’ into this film. On the basis that Leone had certainly heard of Freud and also was an admirer, and later a collector, of Surrealist Art
‘Leone was a great admirer of surrealist art, and it is perhaps no coincidence that the Spanish locations of his Westerns are the same arid dreamscapes Salvador Dali employed in many of his nightmare images of the 1930s’ (www.sensesofcinema.com)
Any interest in the surrealists may well have led to an interest in their ‘bible’ - Freud’s Interpretation of Dreams. It is possible that Leone may have read this and other works by Freud. So far - so good?
I believe that the main characters in FAFDM play out the Freudian psychodynamic trilogy of Id (El Indio’s internal trauma/impotency causing him to be ‘out of control/control-freak’); Ego (Manco) and the Superego (Mortimer’s cool army/societal exterior built over a desire for revenge and redemption).
Well, at least it’s possible, and the character traits fit eerily closely. (I could waffle on about this for hours, but I’ll spare you this).
The hands - as far as I know Manco (Monco is also used) is Spanish for crippled and one-handed. And this braced glove does (besides strangely linking to the beating in AFOD) tie in with the Freudian duality of the ‘pleasure principle’ - the Left-hand - (lighting cigars, fighting one-handed, playing cards, lifting a second watch to control the duel etc. - and the damaged Right-hand as the (ultimate) ‘reality principle’ - the gun.
Manco is ‘balanced’ and ‘the balance’ - he evens the score and mediates between the other two. (As the Ego does between Id and Superego).
The watch itself is a Freudian/Daliesque metaphor for time disjointed - the brain/the clockwork and El Indio’s hypnosis … self-administered.
Could be bullshit, could be true? Did Leone have the collected works of Freud ??? on the bookcase behind all those Oscars ;)?
You’re the philosopher Scherpschutter … any thoughts?
As for the Taberna bit - I aint no linguist but b and v are sort of reversible(?) I think. Certainly I’ve seen Tabernas in Greece and Clarkson was recently making rude jokes, regarding the pronunciation of some Spanish(?) car, on Top Gear, recently when he said if you get this car, you’ll get a lot of badge!
@ Reverend, all those interested in Freud, philosophy etc.
(The following text may be a bit complicated, read it closely and calmly, I promise you it’s comprehensible)
A few days ago my friend Bad lieutenant admitted he’s a law student, but stipulated that he wasn’t an expert on Franco Cleef. I admit that I’ve studied philosophy, but want to stipulate that I’m not a psycho-analyst. But a friend of mine is (I haven’t seen him for quite some time, but keep calling him a friend) and I can tell you he wouldn’t have any trouble with the Reverend’s reading.
Psycho-analysis is, by the way, a rather active strategy: they actively read meanings /explanations into works of art.
In other words: (provided that he would agree with my friend) it would be completely useless to say to a psycho-analist that this reading of FAFDM is wrong; he would answer: we psycho-analists know … (and he would give you the same explanation for the movie, and the psycho-analitic eplanation of the explanation etc.)
I don’t think Sergio was as dogmatic about these things as most psycho-analists are, but it’s quite possible that he was interested in their theories. It’s not necessary that he had Freud’s collected works at home: in artistic circles Freud, Nietzsche and modern - usually freudian inspired - philosophers like Deleuze and Lyotard were studied and he might well have picked up some ideas of them.
In Sergio’s days Freud and his French follower Lacan (who combined psycho-analysis with language theory) were ‘hot’.
These days few scientists or philosophers are enthousiastic about his ideas, still there are freudians/lacanians; the most famous one is the slovanian Slavoj Zizek: he has written a book about cinema in general, and Hitchcock in particular (Looking Awry), but as far as I remember Once upon a time in the west is the only Leone movie that is mentioned.
In Zizek’s, post-modern, post-structural analysis a person’s identity is not fixed, not determined by genetics, but a social phenomenon, determined by social structures.
To give an example: everybody has been given a name by somebody, No Name is not a normal name, so it must have been given by people who didn’t really know him: his enemies (in his case: most people he meets); this may be clear, but in his book Zizek talks about Harmonica: a man without a proper name, who answers, when asked for his name, with other people’s names (and what’s more: dead people’s names); he is, what Zizek calls, a man with a crushed identity, very close to being unreal (he coincides with a purpose: killing the man wh is closely connected to those dead people’s names).
Wow! You guys are really REALLY this nuts?!?!?
I’ll walk for months, if not years, in perpetual state of amazement…
It is just a fuuucking movie, alright. Please, please, PLEASE, get out a bit, screw some girl, do something but please, get out a bit, please.
Thanks for your comments. They’re always welcome.
Don’t you think it is a little inappropriate to give this advice to a reverend ?
[quote=“Manco, post:65, topic:327”]Wow! You guys are really REALLY this nuts?!?!?
I’ll walk for months, if not years, in perpetual state of amazement…
It is just a fuuucking movie, alright. Please, please, PLEASE, get out a bit, screw some girl, do something but please, get out a bit, please.[/quote]
… and we finally learn the truth - the trialectic link between El Indio and the watch, and the watch and Mortimer. The showdown takes place and we see that El Indio controls the situation. Mortimer’s gun lies beside him, but out of reach. Leone, visually, shows us the watch - poised between the two but in El Indio’s hand. As the tension winds up (and the watch winds down) we see Leone’s filmic trademark: metonymic close-up; metophoric panorama; poker players’ eyes devoid of the ‘tell’ and an inhospitable arid landscape that cares nothing for the outcome.
Just as the watch ceases to play and the climax appears to be upon us we hear the music start again and we see Manco’s left hand (the pleasure!) arise holding up another watch (Mortimer’s) to start the ritual anew. His right hand carries the metaphor for the reality principle and his control - an even bigger gun than Mortimer’s. “Very careless of you Old Man” he says, giving Mortimer his own pistol and belt. Manco has now levelled the odds and repaid a debt (to the father(figure) - another Freudian concept). Now Manco controls the game as the Ego mediates between Id and Superego. "Now we start."
And the ‘tell’ starts to show. Metonym, metaphor, close-up, panorama; but this time there is a bead of swead that drips towards El Indio’s eye - a signifier, an indexical link to fear, a metonym for an internal realisation. The Freudian (as Leone tells us they are) flashbacks have eventually given up their meaning and have allowed for his catharsis and his ‘therapy’ to be concluded. The fear that he feels now is not born from his previous internalised trauma and impotence - but from a new external one. Manco is now in control with Mortimer’s sister’s watch. It is not the same watch - not mimetic. It is visibly different - smaller and less ornate - but most importantly, it tells a different time. This time the reality is one of realisation and is not hidden, as previously, by El Indio’s repression. His stolen watch has given up it’s power - mechanically, metaphorically and metonymically. And so, the ritual is replayed, and like this different watch that leads us now - we know that this time, the outcome will also be different.
“Sometimes its good to exercise your brain as well as your cock!” (I’m not sure which bit of the bible that’s from.)
It’s what Gabriel (the arch angel, not the guy from Genesis) told the virgin when she asked him how on earth the Holy Spirit could have made her pregnant.
“But I’m a virgin!..?” quoth she.
“Hail virgin. The Holy Ghost shall come upon you, sanctify you and make you holy. You will be prepared to endure the presence of ‘the Highest’.”
Or …“When the sun beats down and I lie on the beach, I can always hear them talk. Me? I’m just a lawnmower - you can tell me by the way I walk!”
You take your pick really
O.K. I’ll nurse my wound and take the dog for a li’l stroll. Cheers. 
[quote=“Reverend Danite, post:70, topic:327”]“But I’m a virgin!..?” quoth she.
"Hail virgin. The Holy Ghost shall come upon you, sanctify you and make you holy. You will be prepared to endure the presence of ‘the Highest’."
Or …"When the sun beats down and I lie on the beach, I can always hear them talk. Me? I’m just a lawnmower - you can tell me by the way I walk!"
You take your pick reallyO.K. I’ll nurse my wound and take the dog for a li’l stroll. Cheers. ;)[/quote]
I have the Greek version, in a red sleeve, with removable subtitles, apparently the only uncut version around.
(and for God’s sake, don’t mix up the dog with those girls)
One of my 2 favorite westerns (along with Good, Bad & Ugly), regardless of country of origin! They just don’t get better than these 2 in my book!
As it was mentioned in another thread again, some guys in this forum consider this Leone´s best one. Even over OUATITW as they say this one is tighter edited.
Am I the only one who thinks that FOAFDM might be a bit overlong as well. It wants too much in my eyes. We have one half of the movie about the bank robbery and the other happening in the village.
What i find very disturbing in this one(but in most leone picks I have to admit)is the scene where they beat up Eastwood and Van Cleef. The reason given for letting them live is quite stupid, just like in all James Bond movies.
I am not saying i dont like it, but it might be the worst dollar films in my eyes, if it wasn´t for the great final shootout and the flashbacks.
I think that AFOD is the one i like to watch most often as it only has on scene I dislike, being the cemetery scene.
FOADM just needs so long to get to the point.
Maybe i should add that my favourite SW is OUATITW, as most lovers of FOAFDM seem to like it and GBU the best.
[quote=“valenciano, post:73, topic:327”]As it was mentioned in another thread again, some guys in this forum consider this Leone´s best one. Even over OUATITW as they say this one is tighter edited.
Am I the only one who thinks that FOAFDM might be a bit overlong as well. It wants too much in my eyes. We have one half of the movie about the bank robbery and the other happening in the village.
What i find very disturbing in this one(but in most leone picks I have to admit)is the scene where they beat up Eastwood and Van Cleef. The reason given for letting them live is quite stupid, just like in all James Bond movies.
I am not saying i dont like it, but it might be the worst dollar films in my eyes, if it wasn´t for the great final shootout and the flashbacks.
I think that AFOD is the one i like to watch most often as it only has on scene I dislike, being the cemetery scene.
FOADM just needs so long to get to the point.
Maybe i should add that my favourite SW is OUATITW, as most lovers of FOAFDM seem to like it and GBU the best.[/quote]
I do know what you mean, although I’d like to affirm that I love the movie.
I sometimes have the idea that it was intended as a Lee van Cleef movie, so a genuine, uncomplicated revenge movie, and that Clint was smuggled into the movie later, because of the succes of FISTFUL. But the partnership works well (and turned out to be a very important narrative device), so if this suggestion is true, I do not complain.
What certainly is not working well, is this ‘beating up thing’ : I think Indio wants to play off Van Cleef and Eastwood against his own men, so a reason for this behaviour is at least suggested, but it still seems a little silly to me.
And there some other thing about the movie that worries me from time to time: I do not like G.M. Volonté’s performance as Indio, at least not wholeheartedly. I mentioned once that I thought Ramon was a better villain than Indio, and remember Phil was very surprised, so I’ll try to explain what I mean: Indio is a very menacing, terrifying character, but from time to time I don’t see a dangerous lunatic, but an actor impersonating a dangerous lunatic. I doesn’t happen all the time, only once or twice during the movie, but it still is a little distracting from an otherwise totally compelling film experience.
[quote=“valenciano, post:73, topic:327”]As it was mentioned in another thread again, some guys in this forum consider this Leone´s best one. Even over OUATITW as they say this one is tighter edited.
Am I the only one who thinks that FOAFDM might be a bit overlong as well…[/quote]
I’m not particularly fond of this film either, and yes it’s a bit overlong as well, and the story is silly at times.
But many seem to think this is one of the most “entertaining” SWs around, and maybe it is, it certainly has a lot of shooting and riding 
I’m surprised no one ever mentions the silly humour that is so out of sync in this film, but maybe this is also considered entertaining? For example “the prophet” or when Clint enters the hotel with the big woman :
On the other hand it has some violent scenes that is still very dramatic, and also the flashback scenes are good.
To me this film is very uneven and not at all one of the best SWs ever made, Fistful and GBU are Leone’s best films in my opinion, even if the latter is also overlong.
GBU also has a fair amount of humour, but it fits the film better and we have the character of Tuco who is often the center of this humour, which makes it more appropriate.
I like the Prophet :D.
Yes you are the Prophet 
This is my favorite movie but I do agree that Indio’s behavior is quite retarded, beating up Clint and Lee and then sending them off without there guns,e ven though he knew they were bounty hunters from the beginning, and then later turning on his own men. I guess his drug addiction affected his better judgement. This was a man who was borderline insane.
Borderline?!?!
He’s completely off his chump. That’s what I like about him. Just one big twisted nerve, while, for me, Ramon from FOD is just a big bad ass bully. Give me the nutter every time.
Is he psychedelic even? 
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