I have asked myself this question (How on earth can people believe all this?) ever since I lost my religion. I've read various explanations, but none of them seems to have the full answer.
People [i]need to believe in [u]something.[/u][/i] Today, with the pre-existing church framework, it is very easy to subscribe to a set of beliefs literally billions of other people follow, which is why most people's religion is not determined by thought but by and where they are brought up. It could be argued that as long as there has been man, there has been religion and who is to say that is wrong? At first it would've been a natural desire [i]to know[/i], explaining the world by various supernatural phenomena that would have been as real to them as the laptop I'm writing this on is. In time this evolved into a series of interconnected belief structures with various ways of actually involving oneself (or at least think that you did) with this "other world". And not much has changed since then in terms of religion. People belive that prayer will help them or other people just the same the Aztecs thought that for the Sun to rise, a man must be sacrificed (only difference is that prayer is less bloody). That was an absolute, unquestionable truth for them.
In a related topic, people might call themselves Catholic but they won’t necessarily believe in all church doctrine. They pick and chose to form their own version which they are happy with which sounds crazy until you realise that religion’s only reason for existence is to provide hope, comfort and happiness to people. For instance, my mother is a Catholic but she doesn’t think Christ becomes truly present during communion and she and many others don’t think purgatory is real.
I think alot of people are brainwashed by society thinking they have to believe in something or follow a certain path. Seems to suit some people, but not me.
I totally agree with you, Col. Although I believe in God (or the creator, or Holy Spirit - whatever really! - who the hell cares about the name), I am also firmly of the opinion it is impossible to state in 100 % whether God exists or not. Also, I don’t really comprehend people who say that God exists for sure. I guess they don’t want to lose their faith or something, but for me it’s infuriating how thoughtless folks often are. They don’t think about fundamental and existential questions - just pray so that you can end up in the Heaven.
For me, the most baffling matter (that puts me off from the Catholic’s doctrine) is this so-called paradise. I hold the opinion the Buddhist are right by claiming that the best way to achieve happiness is to disclose our own Nirvana - the state of total piece. The human is devoid of any desires and thus does not need to wait for afterlife happiness which is isn’t certain. As regards Catholicism, in this afterlife we are supposed to be always delighted and happy (yeah, sure), but when the human is appeased and has actually everything, doesn’t he search for the pain then? The happiness cannot exist without the pain and the other way round. Hence, only Nirvana appears to be the way to discover the consolation.
Is the death really something that bad? Tolkien in The Children of Húrin tackled a very interesting issue. Elves envy humans that they have the way to leave the world, while Elves have to stay there. It’s difficult to envision afterlife and infinity and these might be quite tiresome - act nothing but existing. I know there is an afterlife in Tolkien’s world, but somehow Tolkien never describes how it is supposed to look like. So… maybe the death is the best way to find peace (the human is always seeking for something - it’s one of our features; if God made us to lose the desire of unremitting search for the sense of existence and new passions, would it be fair or not?).
Just like scherpschutter, I was born a catholic, but now… well… I’m a kinda hybrid of a Catholic, a Buddhist and who knows what else. There are many unresolved questions regarding nature e.g. oceans and cosmos and human makes multiple mistakes which cannot be forgotten, thus it’s not that safe to rely on the science. Nothing is sure and this is the best way to approach such subject.
BTW, when I was on a retreat a couple of years ago, there was a one priest who told all believers gathered in a church not to trust agnostics, as they are slaves of hypocrisy or something like that (I was delighted - the only thing I waited was a mass hysteria and flogging ::)). Next he said something about messages on his mobile phone sent by the devil in Latin. ;D The guy was disabled so maybe I shouldn’t treat him that way, but I’m just quoting him…
The believers are bound to take something for granted providing that it was said by a dude dressed in black and it comes up to their expectations i.e. they are better than those who do not believe.
I’m Agnostic too, but veering more towards Atheist.
I just think that there possibly may be something there, but I don’t think any of the religions are right otherwise there would surely be only one and even if that was the case, would that even be true?
If there really was a heaven, then everyone would be hanging themselves in order to get there lol. Mickey I totally agree with you man. Either way, believing in god and being athiest are both faiths. You have faith that god exists while an athiest has faith that he doesn’t exist. No absolute way to tell for sure, but at the moment the evidence tends to veer towards there not being a god. Because if there was a creator, he certainly could’ve done a better job of it, the universe is pretty fucked in certain ways. Did he wish to give us life? Than why did life only exist in the last .001 percent of our solar system’s history? And why is it seemingly so scarce everywhere else? Perhaps we are just one really bad science experiment. And why did God create us with curved spines when a straight spine would’ve led to less back problems?
If people do need to believe in something in the absence of god, why not believe in science? Its true that science can be every bit as catastrophic as religion (the atomic bomb for instance), but overall I think science has done more good for the world than religion has. It has cured diseases and taught us to live more in harmony with nature, and it also did more to explain the origins of life and what our purpose and place is.
Btw, I’ve read that Jesus actually claimed he was born to a virgin to cover up the fact that he was from a single parent family and didn’t know his father, any truth to that? Was he really the messiah or some poor deludenoid who has everyone fooled.
Of course the only true unequivecol test on whether or not there exists a god is if Wildeast comes out with the Sartana box set in May like they say they will. If that happens, forget everything I say, praise the lord!
People need to believe in something. Today, with the pre-existing church framework, it is very easy to subscribe to a set of beliefs literally billions of other people follow, which is why most people's religion is not determined by thought but by and where they are brought up. It could be argued that as long as there has been man, there has been religion and who is to say that is wrong? At first it would've been a natural desire to know, explaining the world by various supernatural phenomena that would have been as real to them as the laptop I'm writing this on is. In time this evolved into a series of interconnected belief structures with various ways of actually involving oneself (or at least think that you did) with this "other world". And not much has changed since then in terms of religion. People belive that prayer will help them or other people just the same the Aztecs thought that for the Sun to rise, a man must be sacrificed (only difference is that prayer is less bloody). That was an absolute, unquestionable truth for them.
In a related topic, people might call themselves Catholic but they won’t necessarily believe in all church doctrine. They pick and chose to form their own version which they are happy with which sounds crazy until you realise that religion’s only reason for existence is to provide hope, comfort and happiness to people. For instance, my mother is a Catholic but she doesn’t think Christ becomes truly present during communion and she and many others don’t think purgatory is real.
I don’t know if it’s true that people must, or need to believe in something. Like Ennioo stated, this might be a case of indoctrination: we are told that we need to believe in something. But that is not what I meant to say (I wasn’t trying to start a discussion on religion btw), I was talking about organized religion, and in that aspect I asked myself: how can they believe all this. Its beyond me.
You seem to agree with me, more or less, when you say that catholics do not necessarily believe all dogmas of the Church. You gave a few examples, including one concerning your mother. I never met your mother, but I’m sure I could talk for hours with her about the Catholic faith, about the place of religion in a person’s life and all these things. That is not my problem, I often talk to christians, muslims, priests etc. about their faith. A good friend of mine is a theologist (and a person with a broad mind and a good sense of humor).
Relegion not my favourit topic to be believe or not believe, there are good people and bad people who cares I don’t.
Anyway I was raised in the catholic church thanks to mum, the all deal, Sunday school boyscouts and on. And actually it was much fun, go out camping, traveling and I meet more nuns than priests, and priests in Portugal are normally target by older woman that got stuck somewhere along the way, and a priest is man, in some cases the competiton was fierce ahah, so there’s not really the problems we all know.
So for me it the chruch was much fun, some of my best friends still come from sunday schooll, and my first girlfriend was also a girlscout. I can’t tell here the things I’ve done with holy water and church wine ;D, otherwise God might be angry. And the few times I was an altar boy (got a pic somewhere), nasty things usually happened in the mess ;D ;D from church mics out of phase, to electric instruments taken out of the plugs, it was alwways me so they gave up ;D
My kids will follow the same path, well the kid at least.
Wasn’t trying to start discussion Sherpshutter? I… I… Idiot has already done that for us :D.
Before there was organised religion (in pre-historic times, which is a horrible phrase. It’s not “before” history!) there was merely faith and most of the world would have some sort of faith to explain the world (has there ever been a large-scale atheistic society?). Before organised science it was the only way to make sense of it. Now of course people have a choice: believe in a religion, believe in a non-religious specific God, be un-decided or be an atheist. But often people, to make it easy for themselves, so as not to have to think about it, to worry about more practical things, won’t make a choice, they’ll just follow what ever their background was i.e. if you are raised in an atheist’s household, you are a lot more likely to stay an atheist than not. Indoctrination plays a large part in what they believe, but in the modern world, I’m not sure it influences whether they do believe.
Colonel Douglas Mortimer Quote: (God exists if Sebastian fixes the quote function)
If there really was a heaven, then everyone would be hanging themselves in order to get there lol. Mickey I totally agree with you man. Either way, believing in god and being atheist are both faiths. You have faith that god exists while an atheist has faith that he doesn't exist. No absolute way to tell for sure, but at the moment the evidence tends to veer towards there not being a god. Because if there was a creator, he certainly could've done a better job of it, the universe is pretty fucked in certain ways. Did he wish to give us life? Than why did life only exist in the last .001 percent of our solar system's history? And why is it seemingly so scarce everywhere else? Perhaps we are just one really bad science experiment. And why did God create us with curved spines when a straight spine would've led to less back problems?
Coincidently, I was thinking about this last night, prompted by the discussion, but before I read your post this morning! Providence, eh? Where is the good Rev. when you need him?
I think statistically life in the universe other than on Earth is more than very likely; I think, and this will sound very optimistic, that alien life almost certainly exists (and before you ask, I also think the absolute majority of all reported “sightings” of UFOs are by people who are very disingenuous or very drunk). So if that is the case, why would God particularly care about humans? The Bible says it is because we were created in his own image, so He loves us (another thing I dislike about Christianity: the institutional sexism). Yet unlike a child, which we have no say in what sex it is or how they ultimately turn out, God has created humankind from his own exact image, deciding what he look and think like in minute detail, so if He loves us, it is an extension of his own vanity. And God is not vain. Why should it be? It is beyond any human concept of morality. God, if it exists, treats humans I think the same way as he treats a rabbit: with apathy. We are neither loved nor disliked. Hence my total rejection of all miracles (most of which conveniently took place before proper scientific examination) and my disbelief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Is the universe “fucked up”? I’m not sure. All the problems for us, humankind, is created either by are own actions or the restrictions of the planet, a planet that is extremely insignificant when you think of the sheer vastness of the universe, which is almost beyond true comprehension. From afar, for God, the universe probably looks very nice indeed. If it cares. Which I don’t think God does. If anything, the Big Bang (another if, if that is indeed what caused everything to start) happened due to God’s will, almost on an impulse and human beings subsequently evolved from the unique conditions on this planet.
Actually if God exists in the sense that the church (or the churches) think he (she/it) exists, then his “truth” is not a truth, but just another opinion. Even then, if he is indeed almighty.
This derives from the fact that we always assume that God is Omnipotent, omnipresent and knows everything. And what if God was imperfect and could make mistakes? The human being is seemingly always in search for more intelligent creations than himself (e.g. extraterrestrial creations - why do we always say that they are more powerful, more technologically advanced? This might turned out to be just a form of bacteria for example. It would be surely a disappointment for us). God might be also imperfect, who knows? All these hypothetical statements broaden only perspectives how we depict God and supernatural powers in our minds. Many things are beyond our comprehension. What if everything is one big coincidence and everything is pointless?
Of course the only true unequivecol test on whether or not there exists a god is if Wildeast comes out with the Sartana box set in May like they say they will. If that happens, forget everything I say, praise the lord!
Then they wouldn’t be mistakes we would recognised at such, because being powerful enough to create a universe that it itself does not inhabit is beyond are own conception, hence why we can’t truly imagine a 2D or 4D universe for example.
I’m with you on that JW and Mickey. It is very possible that God, if he does exist, basically just created the Universe and then left it to his own devices. I think this argument is consistent with “Deism”, the belief in a creator, but eschewing any non scientific explanations. Then we have the conundrum of multiverses, the paradox of time, and the existence of other dimensions at the atomic level and that really throws everything to a clusterfuck. The ways of the lord really are infinite lol. One of the reasons why I identify as an agnostic and will probably never commit to full blown atheism is that that unfortunately many atheists have turned it into a dogma in its own right. Its almost like a religion now, they became the very thing that they wished to oppose.
Although the big bang theory is widely accepted, it is still only a “theory”. The large hadron collider in the coming years will hopefully shed more light on the origins of the universe. There are several major problems with the big bang theory that it currently fails to explain. I have a feeling that the big bang theory may prove not to be the whole story. I personally am a fan of the “Brane” theory, which is derived from string theory and attempts to explain what happened before the big bang and what caused it. It is interesting how some religious people totally reject the big bang theory as blasphemy while other religious people actually rely on it as “proof” that god exists.
