The cinematographer?
We will agree to disagree on McCabe and Mrs Miller 
but Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid is my personal favourite Peckinpah and I am interested in its history. I really need to rewatch The Wild Bunch too. I cannot really rank it on vague memories.
Yes one of the all-time greats. He also shot another favorite western of mine (not in the list above) “Heaven’s Gate”.
You’re correct. Altman also had a lot to do with how great it was. It was a coming together of two incredible talents: Altman and Zsigmond
Actually it’s the same for Heaven’s Gate. Michael Cimino is quite possibly the most underrated director ever. Cimino and Zsigmond made for one incredible film (the negative criticism at the time was because most critics failed to do the one thing they were supposed to do: review the actual film)
I’d love to see that one. There’s also the TV version too. One day, I hope someone releases the four disc special. Right now all we have is the Peckinpah TCM rough cut and the Seydor 2005 cut. As I said, I respect Seydor’s book and his attempt, but you’ll never catch me watching that instead of the Peckinpah TCM version.
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Heaven’s Gate isn’t a favourite either but the cast is amazing. The film is too long for me. At 200 minutes plus it was too long for me. The thrifty English man in me would have rather had parts 1&2.
Also I didn’t see why this film on it’s release would be criticised as one of the worst films ever made.
Because they didn’t review the film. There’s an interesting book all about the back story.
I’m in the minority of people who prefer the shorter 149 minute version. I bought the German Blu-ray and was happy to see it included as an option. There’s a few scenes I did miss from the longer version though.
That’s more like it!
I’m the same with LORD OF THE RINGS. I have joked that there should be FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING part 1 and 2. Although LOR are not really my thing.
Regarding the theatrical version of Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid, nowadays one can get the impression that this film did not get any recognition before a longer cut appeared in 1988, but that is not true. Peckinpah’s film found a lot of admirers from the beginning on. Having returned to Hardy’s Western encyclopedia, I also reread his entry about Pat Garrett, which was written before the longer cut was released, and it starts with “A masterpiece, despite being mangled” and ends with “This film is essential viewing”. I easily agree, and in between there is this quote: "Peckinpah offers what one critic has called ‘a paralysed epic’ ". Paralysed epic, that wonderfully describes the fatalistic view of the film, in which (unlike the exploding The Wild Bunch) everything implodes.
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I’ll have to give the theatrical cut a watch. I do have the old VHS of Pat Garrett.
Here’s another list.
In 1994 the German genre oriented film magazine Steadycam asked 52 critics, historians and film-makers (mostly from Germany) about their 13 favourite westerns. Here’s the result with the most named westerns:
| 1 | * | 27 | * | The Searchers | * | Ford, John |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2 | * | 22 | * | Red River | * | Hawks, Howard |
| 2 | * | 22 | * | Rio Bravo | * | Hawks, Howard |
| 4 | * | 20 | * | My Darling Clementine | * | Ford, John |
| 5 | * | 17 | * | Forty Guns | * | Fuller, Sam |
| 6 | * | 16 | * | Unforgiven | * | Eastwood, Clint |
| 7 | * | 15 | * | Johnny Guitar | * | Ray, Nicholas |
| 8 | * | 13 | * | She Wore a Yellow Ribbon | * | Ford, John |
| 9 | * | 12 | * | Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid | * | Peckinpah, Sam |
| 10 | * | 11 | * | Ride Lonesome | * | Boetticher, Budd |
| 10 | * | 11 | * | The Naked Spur | * | Mann, Anthony |
| 12 | * | 10 | * | The Wild Bunch | * | Peckinpah, Sam |
| 13 | * | 10 | * | C’ era una volta il West | * | Leone, Sergio |
| 14 | * | 9 | * | Stagecoach | * | Ford, John |
| 15 | * | 9 | * | Vera Cruz | * | Aldrich, Robert |
| 16 | * | 8 | * | Ride the High Country | * | Peckinpah, Sam |
| 16 | * | 8 | * | The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance | * | Ford, John |
| 18 | * | 8 | * | Man of the West | * | Mann, Anthony |
| 18 | * | 8 | * | One Eyed Jacks | * | Brando, Marlon |
| 18 | * | 8 | * | Winchester 73 | * | Mann, Anthony |
| 18 | * | 8 | * | High Noon | * | Zinnemann, Fred |
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And the other westerns which were at least named twice:
| 7 | * | Destry Rides Again | * | Marshal, George |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 7 | * | El Dorado | * | Hawks, Howard |
| 7 | * | Garden of Evil | * | Hathaway, Henry |
| 7 | * | Jeremiah Johnson | * | Pollack, Sydney |
| 7 | * | McCabe & Mrs. Miller | * | Altman, Robert |
| 7 | * | River of No Return | * | Preminger, Otto |
| 7 | * | The Professionals | * | Brooks, Richard |
| 6 | * | Bend of the River | * | Mann, Anthony |
| 6 | * | Gunfight at the O.K. Corral | * | Sturges, John |
| 6 | * | Heaven’s Gate | * | Cimino, Michael |
| 6 | * | Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo | * | Leone, Sergio |
| 6 | * | Man Without a Star | * | Vidor, King |
| 6 | * | Per un pugno di Dollari | * | Leone, Sergio |
| 6 | * | Pursued | * | Walsh, Raoul |
| 6 | * | Shane | * | Stevens, George |
| 6 | * | The Big Sky | * | Hawks, Howard |
| 6 | * | The Man From Laramie | * | Mann, Anthony |
| 6 | * | Silverado | * | Kasdan, Lawrence |
| 5 | * | Duel in the Sun | * | Vidor, King |
| 5 | * | No Name on the Bullet | * | Arnold, Jack |
| 5 | * | Rancho Notorious | * | Lang, Fritz |
| 5 | * | Run of the Arrow | * | Fuller, Sam |
| 5 | * | Seven Men from Now | * | Boetticher, Budd |
| 5 | * | The Big Country | * | Wyler, William |
| 5 | * | The Lusty Men | * | Ray, Nicholas |
| 5 | * | The Outlaw Josey Wales | * | Eastwood, Clint |
| 5 | * | The Tall Men | * | Walsh, Raoul |
| 4 | * | 3:10 to Yuma | * | Daves, Delmer |
| 4 | * | Buchanan Rides Alone | * | Boetticher, Budd |
| 4 | * | Comanche Station | * | Boetticher, Budd |
| 4 | * | Lonely Are the Brave | * | Miller, David |
| 4 | * | Se sei vivo spara | * | Questi, Giulio |
| 4 | * | The Big Trail | * | Walsh, Raoul |
| 4 | * | The Far Country | * | Mann, Anthony |
| 4 | * | The Horse Soldiers | * | Ford, John |
| 4 | * | The Last Frontier | * | Mann, Anthony |
| 4 | * | The Shooting | * | Hellman, Monte |
| 4 | * | The Shootist | * | Siegel, Don |
| 4 | * | The Wonderful Country | * | Parrish, Robert |
| 4 | * | Westward the Women | * | Wellman, William A. |
| 4 | * | Two Rode Together | * | Ford, John |
| 3 | * | Along the Great Divide | * | Walsh, Raoul |
| 3 | * | Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid | * | Hill, George Roy |
| 3 | * | Jesse James | * | King, Henry |
| 3 | * | Little Big Man | * | Penn, Arthur |
| 3 | * | Northwest Passage | * | Vidor, King |
| 3 | * | Ride in the Whirlwind | * | Hellman, Monte |
| 3 | * | Rio Grande | * | Ford, John |
| 3 | * | Silver Lode | * | Dwan, Allan |
| 3 | * | The Ballad of Cable Hogue | * | Peckinpah, Sam |
| 3 | * | The Bravados | * | King, Henry |
| 3 | * | The Last Hunt | * | Brooks, Richard |
| 3 | * | The Magnificent Seven | * | Sturges, John |
| 3 | * | The Return of Frank James | * | Lang, Fritz |
| 3 | * | Ulzana’s Raid | * | Aldrich, Robert |
| 3 | * | Wagonmaster | * | Ford, John |
| 2 | * | Apache Drums | * | Fregonese Hugo |
| 2 | * | Broken Arrow | * | Daves, Delmer |
| 2 | * | Cat Ballou | * | Silverstein, Elliot |
| 2 | * | Cheyenne Autumn | * | Ford, John |
| 2 | * | Colorado Territory | * | Walsh, Raoul |
| 2 | * | Django | * | Corbucci, Sergio |
| 2 | * | Dodge City | * | Curtiz, Michael |
| 2 | * | Fort Apache | * | Ford, John |
| 2 | * | Giu’ la testa | * | Leone, Sergio |
| 2 | * | Great Day in the Morning | * | Tourneur, Jacques |
| 2 | * | High Plain’s Drifter | * | Eastwood, Clint |
| 2 | * | Hombre | * | Ritt, Martin |
| 2 | * | Il grande silenzio | * | Corbucci, Sergio |
| 2 | * | Major Dundee | * | Peckinpah, Sam |
| 2 | * | Monte Walsh | * | Fraker, William A. |
| 2 | * | Pale Rider | * | Eastwood, Clint |
| 2 | * | Run for Cover | * | Ray, Nicholas |
| 2 | * | Shichi-nin no Samurai | * | Kurosawa, Akira |
| 2 | * | Silver River | * | Walsh, Raoul |
| 2 | * | The Gunfighter | * | King, Henry |
| 2 | * | The Indian Fighter | * | De Toth, André |
| 2 | * | The Iron Horse | * | Ford, John |
| 2 | * | The Last Of The Mohicans | * | Mann, Michael |
| 2 | * | The Last Sunset | * | Aldrich, Robert |
| 2 | * | The Last Train from Gun Hill | * | Sturges, John |
| 2 | * | The Left Handed Gun | * | Penn, Arthur |
| 2 | * | The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean | * | Huston, John |
| 2 | * | The Outlaw | * | Hughes, Howard |
| 2 | * | The Unforgiven | * | Huston, John |
| 2 | * | The Virginian | * | Fleming, Victor |
| 2 | * | Union Pacific | * | DeMille, Cecil B. |
| 2 | * | Winnetou I | * | Reinl, Harald |
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Despite the fact that Spags found in Germany (and generally in Europe) more recognition than in the English speaking parts of the world, there are not much in the list apart from the usual Leones. Whose films were named 24 times, but which is less than for The Searchers alone. Leone was the director with the 6th most mentions.
From Corbucci, and that is disappointing, only 3 films were named (Django and Silence twice and Il mercenario once). But at least Questi’s bizarre Django Kill had 4 admirers.
All in all the list represents a more conservative taste, like nearly all lists of critics and film-historians do, with a preference of films made before 1960
It’s not a bad list. It’s conservative (indeed: film critics and historians are almost by definition conservatives - as far as their movie preferences are concerned), still the low marks for High Noon - only N°20 - surprise me a little.
I remember drawing up such a list in the 1980s, when I worked as a film critic, with several colleagues. High Noon was one of those movies mentioned by all others. The Searchers was mentioned several times, but was not yet top of the list (Liberty Valance was mentioned more often). I remember we had some discussions on Shane: few of us called it a personal favorite, but many thought it should be high on the list because of its historic relevance and importance (yes, the best are not necessarily the most important). Shane seems to have dropped from most critics memories (well, still 6 votes …)
Back then we came up with 6 recommendations, 6 titles of movies we thought everybody should be familiar with:
From the classic era:
Shane, High Noon
From the modern era:
Once Upon a Time in the West, The Wild Bunch
Plus:
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Rio Bravo (evrybody should watch at least one movie by John Ford & Howard Hawks
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Interesting, but if you recommend only such a small group of films to represent the whole genre, I have to admit that HN and Shane are similar in their ambition to set them apart from the usual western, and you should have probably chosen instead of Shane, which for these group of films always is named behind HN, a more typical representative for the classic style.
Well, if I had to reduce the genre for an overview to 6 films I would chose Once Upon a Time in the West
and The Wild Bunch (my 2 favourite westerns and also amongst my 5 favourite films) and then High Noon and Rio Bravo also. Next to a Ford western, but not Liberty Valance. And maybe one from Mann.
In the 60s, when westerns were generally despised, HN was often viewed as an “art western”, as a serious western, but it was also the time when Ford (now for and not despite his westerns) and especially Hawks were discovered as “film-gods”, and then in the 70s and 80s HN was often despised for its pretensions against the simplicity of Hawks. And this is a list from the early 90s which still reflects this disput. But in the end HN has remained (or maybe garnered again) its status as one of the best westerns ever.
I myself prefer HN to The Searchers, which is for me surely not the best western ever, or one of the best films ever (if we look at the S&S list). I can understand why so many love this film, but for me it has too much flaws, and is not even Ford’s best western, who is an overrated director for me anyway. And I say this even if I really enjoy many of his films.
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I prefer HIGH NOON to the SEARCHERS also. I only John Ford films I like are LIBERTY VALANCE and THE HORSE SOLDIERS.
John Ford’s overly sentimental and obsessively patriotic approach doesn’t sit too well these days … I think of ‘The Searchers’ as a highly enjoyable adventure movie, extremely well made … but the fawning modern critics and it’s elevation to “Art”, actually puts me off a little. 
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Yeah, despite their qualities Ford’s films are often so totally old-fashioned that I’m wondering that newer film lovers still seem to love them so much. Or maybe they don’t do, and it is still only the old guard who keeps them alive.
They have been told to love them … and as most people fear being ignorant of some cultural aspect, they join in with the glorification.
The enjoyment of an older film has a lot to do with nostalgia for the first time you saw it … perhaps as a young child watching with your parents, when life was less demanding or complex. So this is a part of one’s own personal experience and not a subjective reading of any particular film.
A child of 10 will watch that movie and it either holds his interest or it doesn’t … a group of 18 to 20 year old media students watching the film will all be viewing because they need to know something of what are regarded by their elders as classic … they will never have the same experience as the older critic or the child. They are shit scared of criticising anything that has been “verified” as Genius ! 
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AMEN!! It’s the truth!
It has to do with nostalgia, yes, but your other explanations don’t convince me.
There maybe some who think they must please others, and ignore by that what they really like. But on the other end of the spectrum there are also many, who try equally hard not to like the usual classics, who want to set them apart from the usually praised works, they do it the other way round.
No, things are more complicated, and actually the consensus about what are “great” or “important” films changes over the decades. Several once classics, be that in cinema, or music, or literature, or whatever, are now long forgotten. Not totally forgotten, but not heralded anymore, and other works which were ignored for a long time have become classics in the meantime. The Searchers is a good example for a film which has earned its classic status only much later. I assume not before the 80s.
That film critics only fawn is such a cliche …
What about our forum here?
Do we fawn before Leone, or are there other reasons why most here chose Leone films for the top of their lists? Or is he simply the director, whose films are the most fun to watch?
Well I hope nobody here has GBU or OUTW at the top of their list, if it is not the film they have the most fun with.
I think such lists from critics shouldn’t be left unquestioned, but also shouldn’t be so easily dismissed in what they have to say.
For me these lists are fun to read, they tell me something (even those I can’t take seriously), but what they tell me is not a truth.
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Explain to me then why ‘Citizen Kane’ has been the critics number 1 movie for decades ? Is it really the best film ever made ? … of course it’s not.
Here we are a group who discuss a specific area of cinema and it’s history - no one is forced to join the forum. At least I hope not 
I am giving a general response and my opinion of why I believe certain films are held in higher regard than others … and I really believe that most critics and film students don’t have the strength of character to actually say, "You know what? … ‘High Noon’ bored the ass off me … it’s slow, corny, old fashioned, with that ridiculous dirge of a theme song was doing my head in… etc " No … they go to some long established film historian and regurgitate what has already been written or said.
Maybe this isn’t your experience, Stanton ? … but I’ve been around these kind of people many times … and the worst exponents are the poseurs who go to arthouse screenings and in the queue recite the film historians blurb as if it were their own spontaneous thoughts - wankers !!! and I’m afraid there’s a lot of them in these circles.
My take on this is factual rather than theoretical. 
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