Colonel please could you give me some figures on the following please;
Blood At Sundown
Bury Them Deep
El Puro
Specialisti, Gli
Fasthand Is Still My Name
I Want Him Dead
Thanks in advance.
[quote=āRomaine Fielding, post:17, topic:851ā]Iād be interested in what you find out about Ringoās uniform. It is almost definitely a Union cavalry uniform right down to the yellow neckerchief.
Iāll look at the film again tonight as well.
Be careful about concluding that because the setting in near the Mexican border that it likely it represents a Southern context. There were both Yankee and Confederate sympathizers in the Southwest.
Not that this means anything but in the first Ringo film, I seem to recall Antonio Casas talking to Nieves Navarro about Boston (implying that he lived there once). Would Tessari change the nominal alignment of Ringo from North to South? Yeah, he just might. [/quote]
I admit that Iām a bit puzzled with that uniform (and the flag on the coffin: sure it was a Union flag, Phil, not a fantasy one?)
You might think that Iām looking for loop-holes or cheap excuses - and maybe I am - but when I appear to be wrong, Iāll gladly admit it.
Gianfranco Casadio writes in his book :
(He first introduces the type of SW. He calls it the āReturn of Ulyssesā type : in these films a man comes back from the war and has to fight for a decent life)
Il primo di questi film ĆØ Un dollaro bucato (ā¦) . Ma il piĆ¹ famoso ĆØ sicuramente Il ritorno di Ringo che Duccio tessari reallizza nello stesso anno, ancora con Gemma. Ringo ĆØ un ufficiale sudista che al ritorno dalla guerra scopre che suo padre ĆØ stato ucciso e le sue terre e sua moglie sono preda di un prepotente messicano (ā¦)
Translation:
The first film of this type is One Silver Dollar (ā¦) . But the most famous one is without a doubt The return of Ringo, made by Duccio Tessari in the same year and also starring Gemma. Ringo is a southern officer who discovers, coming back from the war, that his father has been murdered and that his estate as well as his wife have been claimed by a Mexican tyrant (ā¦)
We must also take into account that during WO II, especially during the later stages, Italians were fighting Italians.
There was a lot of turmoil when Mussolini, chased by the American and southern Italians, was re-installed by the nazis and created his kind of private ākingdomā in the North (Salo, a smaller town on the shores of the Garda lake was the capital). This false kingdom didnāt last for long, but according to some historians it was a period of unlimited barbarism and cruelty (Pasoliniās film Salo, i centoventi giorni di Sodoma is not only an adaption of De Sadeās novel but is also a comment on the period). This period is referred to sometimes in spaghetti westerns, if not always directly. (I always think of it when watching films like The Hellbenders and Django Kill!). Mussolini was finally arrested by partisans when he tried to flee the country; he was killed and his corpse was hung upside down on a square in Milan.
What I mean to say is that ultimately it might not be essential if Ringo is a southerner or not: even when heās a Unionist the film might have (or have had) a political meaning to (contemporary) Italian viewers. But this may sound as an excuse ā¦
[quote=āscherpschutter, post:22, topic:851ā]I admit that Iām a bit puzzled with that uniform (and the flag on the coffin: sure it was a Union flag, Phil, not a fantasy one?)
You might think that Iām looking for loop-holes or cheap excuses - and maybe I am - but when I appear to be wrong, Iāll gladly admit it.
Gianfranco Casadio writes in his book :
(He first introduces the type of SW. He calls it the āReturn of Ulyssesā type : in these films a man comes back from the war and has to fight for a decent life)
Il primo di questi film ĆØ Un dollaro bucato (ā¦) . Ma il piĆ¹ famoso ĆØ sicuramente Il ritorno di Ringo che Duccio tessari reallizza nello stesso anno, ancora con Gemma. Ringo ĆØ un ufficiale sudista che al ritorno dalla guerra scopre che suo padre ĆØ stato ucciso e le sue terre e sua moglie sono preda di un prepotente messicano (ā¦)
Translation:
The first film of this type is One Silver Dollar (ā¦) . But the most famous one is without a doubt The return of Ringo, made by Duccio Tessari in the same year and also starring Gemma. Ringo is a southern officer who discovers, coming back from the war, that his father has been murdered and that his estate as well as his wife have been claimed by a Mexican tyrant (ā¦)
We must also take into account that during WO II, especially during the later stages, Italians were fighting Italians.
There was a lot of turmoil when Mussolini, chased by the American and southern Italians, was re-installed by the nazis and created his kind of private ākingdomā in the North (Salo, a smaller town on the shores of the Garda lake was the capital). This false kingdom didnāt last for long, but according to some historians it was a period of unlimited barbarism and cruelty (Pasoliniās film Salo, i centoventi giorni di Sodoma is not only an adaption of De Sadeās novel but is also a comment on the period). This period is referred to sometimes in spaghetti westerns, if not always directly. (I always think of it when watching films like The Hellbenders and Django Kill!). Mussolini was finally arrested by partisans when he tried to flee the country; he was killed and his corpse was hung upside down on a square in Milan.
What I mean to say is that ultimately it might not be essential if Ringo is a southerner or not: even when heās a Unionist the film might have (or have had) a political meaning to (contemporary) Italian viewers. But this may sound as an excuse ā¦[/quote]
These are the kind of things that make this forum interesting for me. You make me wish (again) that I knew Italian. It is definitely a deficit for a Spaghetti fan to speak only English.
Iām going to put my mind to trying to think of films that have, instead, a Union soldier as the āheroā. Donāt know if A Reason To Live, A Reason To Die counts but Southerners are definitely the bad guys here (Telly Savalas).
But none of that really changes or diminishes your precient observation regarding the identification of the Italians, generally, with the Confederate side.
Just thinking about it without any āresearchā, there does seem to be a great deal more identification among Italians with the Southern side.
No problemo Ennioo. Figures are in millions of Lire.
First figure Italy, Second Figure Spain, 3rd figure Spain Admissions
Blood At Sundown 608
Bury Them Deep 234
El Puro 238, 9, 402000
Specialisti, Gli 310
Fasthand Is Still My Name ?, 14, 459000
I Want Him Dead 278, 13, 764000
[quote=āCol. Douglas Mortimer, post:24, topic:851ā]No problemo Ennioo. Figures are in millions of Lire.
First figure Italy, Second Figure Spain, 3rd figure Spain Admissions[/quote]
Thanks for that Colonel, much appreciated :).
Here you go Phil H,
The Great Silence 309 (Iām sure it fared better in Germany and France)
A Bullet for the General 687
Django, Kill 374
Cemetery without Crosses 498
Mannaja 437
Sure
Blindman: Couldnāt find any data.
Stranger 213
Stranger returns 282
Silent Stranger and Get Mean: No data found
The first two stranger movies seem a little bit low, but Iām sure the world wide gross was pretty good considering both films had american releases I believe.
@ Phil, Romaine
It was a Union uniform, a Union flag and Ringo gave his life for the Union (written on his gravestone)
So I was WRONG and Phil was RIGHT
But of course I still have something to say:
Right after the āburialā of Montgomery Brown we see that the Mexicans had bribed a Union officer to arrange the fake burial
An army officer doing a dirty job for a foreign occupying force was a strong symbol in the sixties to an Italian public, for reasons I talked about yesterday. I could even have been read as a reference to Mussoliniās natiolist military, dealing with the Nazis, but that might be a bit far-fetched.
Anyway, a treacheress military, war crimes, renegade officers etc. are recurring themes in SWs, and usually they are read (at least by italians) as a reference to those last days of Mussolini, when the Allied forces (Americans) were already in the country, the southern part was largely liberated, Mussolini had started his ākingdomā in the North and Italians were fighting Italians in the country side.
The most impressive film on this period (a must see) is La Notte di San Lorenzo / The Night of San Lorenzo, by the Taviani Brothers
SWs referring to the period (among others):
The Hellbenders (the renegade officers who continues to fight when the war is over and dreams of a private kingdom)
Fort Yuma Gold (dirty deals in the aftermath of the war of Confederates and Unionists to lay their hands on the gold)
Django il Bastardo (treacherouss confederate officers have caused a bloodbath among their soldiers, one of them has risen from the grave to avenge them)
SWs set in a post war society (listed by Casadio, he calls it the āReturn of Ulyssesā type):
Un dollaro bucato - Il ritorno di Ringo -Le colt cantarono e fu tempo di massacro (Massacre time) - Gli uomini dal Passo Passante - La Morte non conta i dollari - Due Volte Giuda - Una Pistola per cento bare - Quella sporca storia nel West (Johnny Hamlet) - I vigliacchi non pregano - Keoma - California
Casadio lists also a group of films he calls āNordisti e Sudistiā ; those films also deal with problems mentioned above (people with the same nationality fighting each other) ; To mention some:
Il Buono, il brutto, il cattivo - Un fiume di dollari (The Hills run red) - Lo voglio morto - Un ragione per vivere e una per morire
Well, the returning Ringo was modeled after Ulysses, and Ulysses was also returning from a war as a winner. Maybe thatās the simple reason.
Now, if only I can get my wife to say this sometimesā¦
Wish you the best of luck on trying in the future Phil ;).
[quote=āPhil H, post:5, topic:851ā]I have those figures from Fridland also and they do make interesting reading. As both Col.M and RF point out, there are some surprising anomalies betwen the box office success and lasting popularity of a lot of these films.
The Milian example is a good one. There are actually seven of his films which made the top 47 list but three of these were his comedies and would probably be rated by members of this forum as their least favourite of his works. Il Bianco, Il Giallo, Il Nero for example outperformed Faccia a Faccia by around 70%.[/quote]
Wouldnāt it be interesting to publish these 47 films as part of the data base?
Maybe like the Forumās Top 20 with a link on the main page?
[quote=āstanton, post:32, topic:851ā]Wouldnāt it be interesting to publish these 47 films as part of the data base?
Maybe like the Forumās Top 20 lwith a link on the main page?[/quote]
Why not. Iāll have a go at doing it this weekend.
I think it would be a better idea to publish the top 10 or 20 top grossing SW"s for each year. Iāve discovered that there is quite alot of inflation between 1965-78. A 1 million Lire gross is a blockbuster in 1966 but is not that impressive in 1977 anymore. Its best to compare films to the other films of that particular year.
How about it? I wouldnāt mind doing the work.
[quote=āCol. Douglas Mortimer, post:34, topic:851ā]I think it would be a better idea to publish the top 10 or 20 top grossing SW"s for each year. Iāve discovered that there is quite alot of inflation between 1965-78. A 1 million Lire gross is a blockbuster in 1966 but is not that impressive in 1977 anymore. Its best to compare films to the other films of that particular year.
How about it? I wouldnāt mind doing the work.[/quote]
Youāre on. Sounds like a great idea and if you donāt mind the work it would be much appreciated.
No problemo. Right now Iām on vacation but when I come back in a couple of weeks Iāll get started as I donāt have the book with me right now.
Ok here are the numbers from 1965 to 1968. Iāll add other years when I have time. The numbers in brackets are the approximate amounts of Italian westerns produced that year. You will see some very noticable trends in the data. For example, the numbers started going down a bit starting 1968 I believe because of the oversaturation. Also you will see that Giuliano Gemma could do no wrong in Italy. He was huge. Excuse the italian titles. If someone can add english titles to the list be my guest. Once again the numbers are in millions of Lire.
Top 15-25 top grossing Italian Westerns each year. Italian Box Office data.
1965 (40)
1 Per Qualche Dollaro In Piu 3492
2 Dollaro Bucato 1591
3 Adios Gringo 1577
4 Pistola Per Ringo 1352
5 Ritorno Di Ringo 1318
6 Centomila Dollari Per Ringo 1236
7 Per Un Pugno NellāOcchio 826
8 Due sergenti del generale custe 817
9 La dove scende il sole 633
10 Quattro Inesorabili 596
11 Uomini Dal Passo Pesante 545
12 Perche Uccidi Ancora 517
13 Allāombra di una colt 509
14 Uomo Dalla Pistola DāOro 503
15 Straniero A Sacramento 487
1966 (48)
1 Buono Il Brutto Il Cattivo 3211
2 Per Pochi Dollari Ancora 1310
3 Arizona Colt 1249
4 Django 1026
5 Sette Pistole Per I McGregor 976
6 Texas Addio 903
7 Tempo Di Massacro 849
8 Sette Dollari Sul Rosso 840
9 Due Fligli Di Ringo 798
10 Quiene Sabe? 687
11 The Bounty Killer 649
12 Pochi Dollari Per Django 642
13 Mille Dollari Sul Nero 608
14 Ringo Il Volto Della Vendetta 601
15 django spara per primo 589
16 Sugar Colt 571
17 per mille dollari al giorno 549
18 Viva Maria 543
19 Yankee 528
20 Johnny Yuma 526
1967 (60)
1 Dio Perdonaā¦Io No! 2067
2 Giorni DellāIra 1997
3 Resa Dei Conti 1441
4 Da Uomo a Uomo 1262
5 Wanted 1133
6 Faccia A Faccia 1117
7 Lunghi Giorni Della Vendetta 1072
8 Vado, LāAmmazzo E Torno 952
9 Bello Il Brutto Il Cretino 831
10 Odio Per Odio 711
11 Piuā Grande Rapina Nel West 664
12 Sette Donne Per I Macgregor 646
13 Hombre Que Mato A Billy El Nino565
14 Killer Calibro 32 563
15 Professionisti Per Un Massacro524
16 Due Rrringos Nel Texas 509
17 Diecimila Dollari Per Un Massacro470
18 Requiescant 470
19 Cjamango 467
20 El Desperado 466
21 Tempo Degli Avvoltoi 451
22 Clint Il Solitario 447
23 Gentleman Joā¦Uccidi 422
24 Ballata Per Un Pistolero 412
25 Killer Kid 396
1968 (66)
1 Cāera Una Volta il West 2504
2 Quattro Dellāave Maria 2226
3 E Per Tetto Un Cielo Di Stelle 1146
4 Mercenario 1101
5 Corri Uomo Corri 1000
6 Oggi A Meā¦Domani A Te 941
7 Ala Di Laā Della Legge 897
8 Cannoni Di San Sebastian 845
9 Se Incontri Sartana Prega Per Morte 823
10 Nipoti Di Zorro 762
11 Preparati La Bara 683
12 Ammazali Tutti El Torna Solo 644
13 Dos Veces Judas 512
14 Killer Adios 476
15 Ognuno Per Seā 476
16 Quella Sporca Storia Del West 469
17 Tre Che Sconvolsero Il West 451
18 Suo Nome Gridava Vendetta 432
19 Anche Nel West Cāera Una Volta Dio 405
20 Chiedi Perdono A Dio E Non A Me 386
21 Tutto Per Tutto 385
22 Quel Caldo Maledetto Giorno Fuogo 380
23 Sonora 378
24 Joko Invoca Dio E Muori 377
25 Morti Non Si Contano 369
Brilliant stuff Colonel. Makes very interesting reading.
I agree.
Yes, and many of these box office data are very surprising for me.