[quote=“Silvanito, post:34, topic:649”]Well, then it’s really fortunate we have Corbucci and others, who had a lot of big roles for women in their films :)[/quote]Not sure if this is meant to be ironic comment but yes, Corbucci is clearly another case compared to Leone. In most of his films there is a heroine or some other important roles for women.
Of course women are not treated that well in Corbucci’s films either but I think they’re still portayed in better light. For example in “Sonny & Jed” Sonny is treated badly by Jed but in the end she starts to oppose him and demands better treatment. So there is an issue of equality in the film which I can’t find in any Leone film.
[quote=“Phil H, post:40, topic:649”]For my money, I value this forum as a place where I can talk about stuff that interests me with other people who share those interests. My family love me but frankly get bored witless when I want to rant about Volonte’s performance in Quien sabe? or Leone’s use of comic book style composition. I also value it for the depth of knowledge and opinion of it’s members. I’ve learned a lot since joining up and have been able to access a lot of films I would never have been able to without the info and advice gained from this forum.
My policy on posting is a simple one. If I see a thread with a post that interests me I respond. If not I ignore it. If I have an opinion I want to share I post it. If someone disagrees I welcome the debate. And if someone just wants to say “I saw this movie last night and it was great” it’s ok with me. I’m not here to get into fights.
Can we just get along?[/quote] I agree, entirely. I never joined here, to pronounce myself an expert on SW’s. Or, for that matter westerns. If I knew everything, I wouldn’t be here. I’d be writing a book. I joined to learn things. I love the genre, but will be the 1st to admit that I don’t know every little factoid. Some of that gets in the way of over-all appreciation, anyway. I have not accused Leone of anything in this thread, merely raised issues regarding what his driving force was with female characters in his films. Even if he had a deviant sexual proclivity, it wouldn’t prevent me from enjoying his work. If you think everyone involved in his films were straight-laced heterosexuals, you are delusional. I’m sure there are back stories you’ll never hear about, in regards to individuals you may admire.
Well, I think the topic is interesting, and it is also often mentioned by Sir Christopher Frayling(biographer of Leone, who does most of the audio comments on the versions i own). He says women are portrayed quite bad in leone´s movies.
But that makes him gay??? I just think he had the macho image that men are better than women. The women in fistfull of Dollars is totally helpless.
This changes with jill, who is a strong women even as a prostitute.
Well i didnt see it in the docs that they never wantes the character jill. The problem i have with Dutch engstrom´s comments is that it looks like he thinks only his opinion is right. We dont know if leone never wanted jill. We can only argue but he states everything like its a fact.
And in general women aren´t treated well in most spaghettis. All they bring to the story most of the time, is that someone(the bad guy mainly) has a desire for them; or they are helpless and the good guy feels like saving them.
It is a macho way of judging women, i think. and that fits the clische of macho southern european man that they think like that. So mayber leone was one of them.
and there is the infamous trainleaving scene of cardinale, where they say that leone had intended to film under her skirt to show the audience she was not wearing underwear. But i can understand him there, if i had been in the position of commanding cardinale i would have tried to get at least a few topless scenes ;D
[quote=“Bill san Antonio, post:41, topic:649”]Not sure if this is meant to be ironic comment but yes, Corbucci is clearly another case compared to Leone. In most of his films there is a heroine or some other important roles for women.
Of course women are not treated that well in Corbucci’s films either but I think they’re still portayed in better light. For example in “Sonny & Jed” Sonny is treated badly by Jed but in the end she starts to oppose him and demands better treatment. So there is an issue of equality in the film which I can’t find in any Leone film.[/quote]
Hehe, no irony I just meant Corbucci tended to have larger roles for women, it’s not like with Leone only men in the leading parts.
And yes the women in Corbucci’s films are also treated bad like everyone else in the spaghettiwestern world.
But I can’t see they’re portrayed in a degrading manner, and not by Leone either.
“Sonny and Jed” was obviously for fun, and if someone is presented in a bad light it’s the chauvinist Milian not Susan George
If you want to see “feminist” type spaghettis with mostly strong women in the lead, there’s Viva Maria and Les Petroleuses, both with Brigitte Bardot.
As far as stating anything as fact, Bernardo Bertolluci was the one in the West doc. relating the story, not me. Unless the translator mis-interpreted him, I’m just repeating what I viewed. Frenchie King(Petroleuses) had a lot of women, but strong, I don’t know. It was more of a T&A comedy, and the women were window dressing, at best. And, as far as my opinions being right, they are right, by me. Just as your opinions are right, by you. That’s why they’re called opinions. I’m not trying to talk anyone out of their beliefs, and no one will talk me out of mine. But we can discuss them. Isn’t that what we’re here for?
Well, just rewatched the documentary, and Bertolucci is speaking in english and saying that in the very beginning Leone was not up for the idea with a female main character. But that he quickly got accustomed to it. So I disagree with the idea that leone wanted to make this film without a women. Maybe it didnt occur to him before bertolucci and argento had the idea of a women, but the movie would have never been the same or close without a women.
That is what i meant. just say it differently. you said he never had intentions to put a woman in this film. at that time he just had the idea to do a final western, and just started to collect ideas with his righters(at least this is what i hear from bertolucci´s telling). and bertolucci never said they needed a long time to convince him, he says he liked it quite fast. So i interpretate it as this: leone had the rough idea of another western, and in the brainstorming for ideas is convinced of a female character. I dont think that he would have made the film like this, if he never wanted a female character. and it does not seem as he was talked into casting a woman.
well that is how I see it, we can discuss it. but please dont say stuff like: he never intended to have a woman in this film, as if you can read his mind.
Alright, I may have slightly misinterpreted exactly what Bertolluci sayed(I wasn’t watching the doc while posting). But, as I sayed before, Leone was usually putting together ideas for his next film, while working on a current one. Although I don’t know an exact time frame, I would say he had a good half year between GBU and before West went into production. Which means he had a story put together, mentally, if not on paper. So, his writers had that amount of time for pre-production discussions.
Sorry to disagree again, but he staited himself, that after the dollar films he wasnt thinking about any other westerns anymore. he allready was thinking about Once upon a time America. But this film also hardens your point of Leone having problems with women.
Anyway it might be that at that times the emancipation of women was not at the state of today, especially in southern europe. Today view on women has changed and I think this is good.
We allready talked about this in the topic"do girlfriends and spaghhettis go togehter" that I think the view on women in spaghettis and especially leone flicks is what makes me not watch them with my girl.
I think he shows women in his movies in a more religios way, especially in FoD. Marisol and Maria is almost the same name and the little boy is called Jesus.
Interesting to see this old topic on the front page - not long ago I came across an interview with Quentin Tarantino, from when he was involved in the SW tribute at the Venice film Festival. The source (in Italian) is here[/url] - at a certain point they discuss Kill Bill and Grindhouse as action films focused on women, with strong SW influences on Kill Bill - he calls Uma Thurman’s Bride “a Navajo Joe character” - as opposed to the generally marginal female roles in classic SWs. Here’s what comes up about Leone:
[b]Q: In several interviews, Sergio Leone stated that female characters in westerns aren't interesting because the focus is on the friendship between the men. As a matter of fact, it's easy to read a gay subtext in many SWs, like Edoardo Mulargia's [i]La taglia è tua... l'uomo lo ammazzo io[/i] or [i]Se sei vivo spara[/i] by Giulio Questi...[/b]
QT:Yeah, it’s true! It’s easy to find gay themes in westerns and a homosexual subtext just makes a genre movie more entertaining to watch in my opinion! (laughs) Anyway I see where Leone was coming from, because his focus is on the honor code, what a man must or must not do in a given situation. By the way, in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly Lee Van Cleef and Clint Eastwood are truly in some kind of male romance (laughs)
…So these are QT’s proverbial two cents on the subject I wish I had something insightful to say, too (being a woman and all ::)) but my brain is dead right now (lol). By the way Silence has a point in my opinion, there is a tendency to portray women as madonnas or sacrifical lambs. Let’s not forget Mortimer’s sister in FAFDM: for a modern mentality it’s a bit mind boggling that she gets the gun and shoots herself instead of her rapist, but they really remade the Maria Goretti[url]http:// story there. And here I am conflicted because while I have issues with this plot device, I love the story that starts from here to pieces, so… I’ll keep it this way I guess
I’ve read a lot of contributions to this topic and remember an interview,too.
I think it was Sergio Sollima,not sure.
He told a story when he and a few friends sat together,also Sergio Leone and they all showed how they would shoot,with their hands like children.
It must have been a very funny day.
Maybe it’s not so complicate,but rather that a few old guys wanted to have fun.
Fun by making western.
Maybe women were simply not important,especially in comic style western.
When i saw the first ones,the last thing i needed were women.
I wanted to see gunfights and cool gunmen,that was Sergio Leone showed.
;D
I wish I had something insightful to say, too (being a woman and all ::)) but my brain is dead right now (lol). By the way Silence has a point in my opinion, there is a tendency to portray women as madonnas or sacrifical lambs. Let’s not forget Mortimer’s sister in FAFDM: for a modern mentality it’s a bit mind boggling that she gets the gun and shoots herself instead of her rapist, but they really remade the