I have read - and it makes sense - that Fu Sheng’s death contributed to the unusually bitter, angry tone of the movie, that his colleagues’ remorse influenced and altered the overall mood. I don’t know if it was originally intended to be this harsh.
As you say Frank, it’s one of Shaws’ finest.
[quote=“Starblack, post:401, topic:368”]I have read - and it makes sense - that Fu Sheng’s death contributed to the unusually bitter, angry tone of the movie, that his colleagues’ remorse influenced and altered the overall mood. I don’t know if it was originally intended to be this harsh.
As you say Frank, it’s one of Shaws’ finest.[/quote]
It is one of my favorites and Gordon Liu is bad ass as always in it.
[quote=“Phil H, post:397, topic:368”]It was a Shaw Brothers morning here today. Masked Avengers was viewed and was a good ride. Much more blood thirsty than any I’ve seen so far and with more wire and trampoline work. I liked Philip Kwok as the former #2 and some of the choreography was spectacular. Particularly the final fight scene where the trident work was very good indeed. I’ve enjoyed all my Shaw experiences so far and this is one of the better ones to date.
Next up will be 8 Diagram Pole Fighters I think.[/quote]
Masked Avengers is dark & great! Blood drinking & trident swinging mayhem. One of my favorites…but 8 Diagram is second to none! Watch it last Phil.
8 Diagram Pole Fighters has been viewed.
For the first half hour I was a bit worried. Despite advice from FT and I…I… (who both know far more about these things than me) I wasn’t overly impressed. It did get a lot better however and I wound up having a good time with it as expected. The final fight scene is pretty darn good. I hope those fellas had good dental insurance!
[quote=“Phil H, post:404, topic:368”]8 Diagram Pole Fighters has been viewed.
For the first half hour I was a bit worried. Despite advice from FT and I…I… (who both know far more about these things than me) I wasn’t overly impressed. It did get a lot better however and I wound up having a good time with it as expected. The final fight scene is pretty darn good. I hope those fellas had good dental insurance![/quote]
Fuck those wolves! 
I almost feel Gordon Liu’s final fight scene with his mentor where he removes his slippers while drawing the diagram in the dirt might be my favorite. Many great scenes along with the tangibly somber overtones combine to make this my all time fav.
I first saw that one as the dubbed version and loved it - seeing the Celestial Pictures release a couple years ago and I was very pleased it did not disappoint.
Yes… Chang Cheh has been criticized for his chauvinism. In fact, some of his male stars were rumored to be his lovers, disguised as “godsons.” He’s not into women, let’s just say.
I’ve never heard of any rumors his stars were his lovers. There was supposedly a rumor going around in HK that David Chiang and Ti Lung were lovers at one time, but this came from the tabloids over there. Cheh, himself dispelled the notion of any godsons. It was a title the papers gave to a number of his big stars. Some of them, like Fu Sheng, referred to Chang Cheh as ‘Father’. Cheh was married to actress Helen Li Mei LOOONG before he became a movie director and he had been rumored to have been attached to some other female acquaintances at the time.
I’ve written about this before and really don’t understand all this ridiculous gay talk that Cheh was a homosexual. If the man spent his entire career stating he was straight, then why think he was lying? Prior to his films THERE WERE NO MALE STARS. Hong Kong cinema was dominated by FEMALE STARS. Even the male roles were often played by females. He changed all that by placing the focus on male dominated storylines. It was a gamble that ultimately paid off.
Cheh says this in his memoirs, “In my films, there are depictions of homosexual characters, and I have expressed interest in topics that touch on homosexuality, but these have absolutely nothing to do with male friendship! Chinese traditions praise brotherly righteousness-it transcends romantic love between the sexes and has always been embraced by literature and drama. Both John Woo and I inherited this tradition. But it is altogether a different matter from homosexuality.”
But then, HK cinema notwithstanding, you have “critics” who spend their time claiming that other genres are all about homosexuality including Spaghetti Westerns and Sword & Sandal movies. “The gun is the extension of the penis…” and other such nonsense as that. It would seem some people have too much time on their hands.
Peplums and Fusto films are all about gayness because of the way they dress…huh??? They didn’t have blue jeans and long sleeves back then so what do these people expect them to wear!!! There’s just as many females in often diaphanous gowns parading about so I don’t see where these films are secret advertisements for the gay trade.
Sergio Leone didn’t place emphasis on women, either. Does this mean he was gay, too???
In a number of Cheh’s earlier movies romanticism plays a major role. Overall, women were often either helpless things to be rescued by the hero (HEROIC ONES, SHAOLIN MARTIAL ARTS), or, more often portrayed as promiscuous, or simply there to bring about the downfall of the hero in some way (RETURN OF THE ONE ARMED SWORDSMAN, FIVE ELEMENT NINJAS). And in other instances, women on a rare occasion, were given a chance to showcase in the fight scenes (WATER MARGIN and most spectacularly in ALL MEN ARE BROTHERS).
I agree this notion of pinning the “gay” label on movies such as these was to debase them and prevent them from getting wider acclaim. Then again back then everyone was watching Rock Hudson and everyone knew he was a man’s man… please.
Instructors of Death was my latest Shaw viewing. At first I wasn’t sure I was going to like it as much as the others as there was a big comedy element going on. But as it progressed it found a real balance and in the end it probably turned out to be something of a favourite.
In particular I really liked the final fight scene in the narrowing alley way. Very cool and made me wonder if Tarantino had this as his inspiration for the caravan fight scene in Kill Bill. (my favourite scene from that film too) Something about well choreographed fight scenes in a tightly confined space obviously works for me.
Isn’t that something? I tell you, it’s the ultimate paydirt as you described this one perfect for me. Wang Wei’s only good guy role in a Shaw’s…EVER!
Wait until you see the climax of Return To The 36th Chamber.
[quote=“Angel Face, post:408, topic:368”]Sergio Leone didn’t place emphasis on women, either. Does this mean he was gay, too???
In a number of Cheh’s earlier movies romanticism plays a major role. Overall, women were often either helpless things to be rescued by the hero (HEROIC ONES, SHAOLIN MARTIAL ARTS), or, more often portrayed as promiscuous, or simply there to bring about the downfall of the hero in some way (RETURN OF THE ONE ARMED SWORDSMAN, FIVE ELEMENT NINJAS). And in other instances, women on a rare occasion, were given a chance to showcase in the fight scenes (WATER MARGIN and most spectacularly in ALL MEN ARE BROTHERS).[/quote]
I said “rumored.” I could care less whether he was gay or not.
However, I suspect his emphasis on male friendship and talk of brotherhood honor may just be a cover - it’s a little too intense to be platonic. That’s my opinion. I don’t think you can take anyone’s opinion away. Anyone who spends that much energy trying to refute something other people’s judgments of them, false or not, has an issue with that particular judgment. The more attention you put into something, the more important it gets, and it’s only important because it matters to you in a deep way. Being married to a woman or having children doesn’t prove whether someone is gay or not. There are gay people who married their heterosexual spouses for reasons of social acceptance, convenience, and perhaps personal confusion regarding their orientation. I think Chang Cheh “doth protest too much.”
Frank, on the contrary… any press is good press in my opinion, especially with non-mainstream films. If it’s talked about in some form, it will stay alive and perhaps reach out to people who really love the genre.
I’m not fond of Chang Cheh’s films not because of his sexual orientation. His films portray women as the “balls and chains” that obstruct and destroy men’s lives. The female characters have no redeeming qualities whatsoever - the female characters are, simply put, annoying. In fact, they are mostly one-dimensional damsels in distress - how exactly is that in the romantic style? As far as I know, women have always been an integral part of wuxia. They weren’t as strong as the men but at least they were respectable characters. Chang Cheh’s portrayal of women shows a chauvinistic attitude, and Leone’s portrayal of women, while not exactly fair, was nowhere near the contempt Chang Cheh showed.
What does Chinese cinema’s emphasis on female stars prior to the kung fu have to do with anything here? It’s a shift of interest from drama to action which can be explained by many other factors. Drama is more female-centered, and action is more male-centered. What does that have to do with Chang Cheh’s orientation or chauvinistic attitude?
I don’t know much about Chinese culture, nor about Chinese cinema prior to the Kung Fu, but artists do work within an context. Leone for example worked within the context of Italian art & culture; his vison on women was strongly influenced by the (catholic/christian) mother/whore symbolism, and central place of the family within Italian life: his revenge stories refer mainly to the destruction of the family structure, which calls for a bloody vengeance.
Cheh (and other directors) must have worked within a typical Chinese context, so in this sense it might be interesting to know how women were presented in cinema prior to the kung fu rage.
Another question must be: in what way does Cheh’s vison on women differ from other (contemporary) Chinese directors, and why?
I am a newcomer to this genre on the whole but of all the Shaw Brothers films I have watched recently only Avenging Eagle stands out as having female characters who are mainly passive victims rather than active characters. In all the others the women are very noticeable in their strong nature. Fighting alongside and against men. It is true that eventually they tend to become subortinate but the fact remains they are poles apart from the vast majority of their Spaghetti counterparts. Or most female characters in U.S or european films of that time to be fair.
I’m not a feminist, and I’d like to think I haven’t been brainwashed. So I’m not bashing Chang Cheh for fun, and I don’t really like or hate him enough to watch his films again or analyze them too deeply. But seriously, his portrayal of female characters is just offensive. There’s a Chinese saying that wives are disposable but brotherhood/camaraderie binds men forever, something like that. Chang Cheh subscribes to this attitude.
Phil, that is mostly my observation too.
scherp, people are writing PhD theses on these topics, so I can only tell you what I know in a capsule. Chinese cinema, originating from Shanghai, initially focused on drama and drama is naturally the realm of the “feminine.” You know, about emotional experiences, tragedy, etc. Up until the 60s, most films, Shaw or otherwise, were dramas that starred tragic female leads like Linda Lin. Chang Cheh probably grew up watching those films and ached to do something different, something manly, something unrelated to women. Just my two cents.
There was a high incidence of suicides among these actresses, and their tragic lives are deeply entrenched in the public’s minds. The filmmaking generation of the 60s launched a revolution in Chinese filmmaking, and some argue that this revolution is still going on. Hong Kong in those days had a huge influx of immigrants from Mainland China that went Communist in 1949, as I’m sure you know. So, the generation that grew up in Hong Kong had a certain nostalgia for the elusive “Chinese homeland” and culture, and many of the filmmakers in the 60s were from that generation. Many films began to be martial arts and wuxia-oriented (wuxia always existed but it was more cultish and more fantastical), which revisited Chinese history, themes, and values. You have two celebrated martial arts directors: King Hu and Chang Cheh. The difference in their attitudes towards female characters is striking.
Then in the 60s King Hu came along and made a wuxia/martial arts film that was artistically astounding and also portrayed female martial artists as individuals - there was still the tender respect towards female stars that used to be mainstream. After that, martial arts films poured. And of course, martial arts films evolved into action films of the 80s that Jackie Chan is famous for. Until Wong Kar-Wai and Stanley Kwan, many HK films didn’t even focus on women as individuals, thanks to Mr. Chang starting a chauvinistic trend in HK films that hasn’t ended as far as I’m concerned. I watched many action films as a kid, so I don’t knock them. Still today, as seen in many of Johnnie To’s films, women are just by-products. Johnnie To himself said in a screening I attended that he was heavily influenced by Chang Cheh and loved all of his stuff. See a Johnnie To film and you will see Chang Cheh’s influences.
As for Chang’s orientation, I have a certain opinion because 1) local gay friends have said he is. I mean, if someone famous is gay, you would think the gay community would be the first to know, 2) local film scholars argued how the so-called “brothers” were more like lovers in certain scenes, under the guise of camaraderie of course. The mood in some scenes was just a bit too romantic. 3) The information I get can be different than what Internet cult film forums and film critics report. So, if anyone is dying to know, I’ll try to find out from the primary sources I can find locally. If not, let’s just say it’s controversial.
Then how do you watch Spaghetti Westerns? The treatment of women is only eclipsed by the treatment of those poor horses.
[quote=“Mrs Angel Eyes, post:412, topic:368”]I said “rumored.” I could care less whether he was gay or not.
However, I suspect his emphasis on male friendship and talk of brotherhood honor may just be a cover - it’s a little too intense to be platonic. That’s my opinion. I don’t think you can take anyone’s opinion away. Anyone who spends that much energy trying to refute something other people’s judgments of them, false or not, has an issue with that particular judgment. The more attention you put into something, the more important it gets, and it’s only important because it matters to you in a deep way. Being married to a woman or having children doesn’t prove whether someone is gay or not. There are gay people who married their heterosexual spouses for reasons of social acceptance, convenience, and perhaps personal confusion regarding their orientation. I think Chang Cheh “doth protest too much.”
Frank, on the contrary… any press is good press in my opinion, especially with non-mainstream films. If it’s talked about in some form, it will stay alive and perhaps reach out to people who really love the genre.
I’m not fond of Chang Cheh’s films not because of his sexual orientation. His films portray women as the “balls and chains” that obstruct and destroy men’s lives. The female characters have no redeeming qualities whatsoever - the female characters are, simply put, annoying. In fact, they are mostly one-dimensional damsels in distress - how exactly is that in the romantic style? As far as I know, women have always been an integral part of wuxia. They weren’t as strong as the men but at least they were respectable characters. Chang Cheh’s portrayal of women shows a chauvinistic attitude, and Leone’s portrayal of women, while not exactly fair, was nowhere near the contempt Chang Cheh showed.
What does Chinese cinema’s emphasis on female stars prior to the kung fu have to do with anything here? It’s a shift of interest from drama to action which can be explained by many other factors. Drama is more female-centered, and action is more male-centered. What does that have to do with Chang Cheh’s orientation or chauvinistic attitude?[/quote]
You have obviously not seen all of the mans movies, or if you have, you paid little attention. Once more I will list a few Chang Cheh movies that feature women in strong roles.
In THE ASSASSIN (1967) Chiao Chiao is an integral part of the story and the love interest to Wang Yu’s character so what’s gay about this film?
In HAVE SWORD WILL TRAVEL (1969), David Chiang sacrifices himself so that Li Ching will remain with Ti Lung instead of falling for Chiang’s character. There was a major love angle in the plot of that film and Li Ching played a swordswoman, too. No gayness here either.
In WATER MARGIN Ivy Ling Po plays one of the major characters and she fights alongside the men at the end and kills a number of males as well. Still nothing in the way of homo sex. Male brotherhood, yes, male rear entry, no.
In THE INVINCIBLE FIST (1969), Lo Lieh has romantic involvement with a blind girl played by Li Ching. The film even has a happy ending for crying out loud! However, when Cheh’s protege, Kuei Chi Hung remade it as the superior KILLER CONSTABLE a decade later, the tone was anything but happy.
In ALL MEN ARE BROTHERS Yue Feng features in one of the major and most gory battles in the movie…attempting to save her husband no less!!! I fail to find any such homosexual tendencies here but there is a plethora of men dying in horribly gruesome fashion, but one of the major players is a female!!! And she fights, too, in one of the most intense scenes in the entire movie…and kills lots of men!!!
In THE ANONYMOUS HEROES (1971) Ching Li is one of the ‘Anonymous Heroes’ of the title and the girlfriend of David Chiang’s character. Don’t see the gayness.
I think people will read into things what they will. Doesn’t make it so. I also believe people enjoy stirring up controversy to gain attention out of jealousy or greed. I don’t think he’s protested too much at all, but if you were repeatedly asked one such question in interviews, naturally you will defend yourself. It’s not an admission of guilt. Just because “Chinese people said he was gay”. Well I’ve been around Chinese people much of my life and just because an Asian makes that remark doesn’t make it so, either.
I just find it amusing and irritating when people talk of Chang Cheh that SOMEONE must always say they believe him to have been a homosexual in an effort to make themselves stand out in the discussion. Making sensationalistic remarks always stirs interest, unfortunately. We have tabloids here, too, that make all kinds of accusations about movie stars in Hollywood. How many times are those ever concrete fact?
As for Chang’s orientation, I have a certain opinion because 1) local gay friends have said he is. I mean, if someone famous is gay, you would think the gay community would be the first to know, 2) local film scholars argued how the so-called “brothers” were more like lovers in certain scenes, under the guise of camaraderie of course. The mood in some scenes was just a bit too romantic. 3) The information I get can be different than what Internet cult film forums and film critics report. So, if anyone is dying to know, I’ll try to find out from the primary sources I can find locally. If not, let’s just say it’s controversial.
I’ve heard all this same stuff before. There’s nothing you could present that at least myself hasn’t heard before. Scholars…right…again, as I said above, people are going to read and decipher what they will. Just as with music, an individual makes their own interpretation as to the meaning of art whether a painting or a piece of cinema.
Cheh has also stated that his films have utilized homosexual characters in them so there is no great mystery to that when the man himself has stated that fact. But YET AGAIN, please re-read the statement typed verbatim from Cheh’s memoirs…oh, nevermind, I will simply RE-POST IT ONCE MORE…
“In my films, there are depictions of homosexual characters, and I have expressed interest in topics that touch on homosexuality, but these have absolutely nothing to do with male friendship! Chinese traditions praise brotherly righteousness-it transcends romantic love between the sexes and has always been embraced by literature and drama. Both John Woo and I inherited this tradition. But it is altogether a different matter from homosexuality.”
Judging by your posts, Mrs Angel Eyes, and despite your affirmation to the contrary, Cheh’s “treatment of women” deeply bothers you to a degree you feel the need to attack the man (who is no longer alive to “protest”) and bring up dirty rumors from decades past when in all truth, this discussion was nothing about his supposed sexual preference…but his movies.
Every director, every good director has his own signature style. Cheh’s was one dominated by strong male characters. And as I have already stated and reiterated countless times again and again, a number of his movies feature strong female roles, despite them not being the center of attention. But why should they be? He is the director after all. It is his vision.
And King Hu’s COME DRINK WITH ME (1966) was not responsible for the influx of action movies in Hong Kong. Cheh’s ONE ARMED SWORDSMAN (1967) was the film that put action on the map after it was the first film of its kind to break the million dollar mark at the HK box office and even earned the man the nickname of “The Million Dollar Director”.
Finally saw The Fugitive (the flick Angel Face mentioned a while back) it was a whole lotta fun…some real nice shootouts and recycling of OUATIW’s music…Recommended for all its silly glory…
Quite the long post there AE. But let me chime in…I don’t care! Not about your defense of the man but whether or whether he was or wasn’t. What does it matter? He made amazing films & I don’t care if he was a loving husband with 8 kids or whether he man- shagged Fu Sheng in between takes. I understand your passion for the man, his work & the genre but people’s sexuality is not my affair.
“Did you see that fight scene in Crippled Avengers?”
“Yeah…but isn’t the director gay?”
Seriously? If let’s say a popular user here named @#$% was gay, would we feel any different about them? (Although that would make for interesting reading on the ‘Talk Whatever’ thread).
I agree - it’s not relevant to anything. Well said Idiot. and your line about man shagging Fu Sheng cracked me up. Line of the week my friend.