[quote=āscherpschutter, post:19, topic:188ā]the first Sartana-as-we-know-him started the process of desintegration that lead to the Trinities, the Twilight spaghetties and the slow death somewhere in the late 70ās.
ā¦ and ended some six years later with COMPAƱEROS (the last truly great SW)[/quote]
And Keoma (1975); and A Man Called Blade (1977) arenāt great spaghetti westerns?!
Pistols at dawn Dear Chap!
You forgot California, Reverendā¦ Even better than those two.
Indeed, you speak the truth Brother AvatarDK. I agree entirely - one of my top 10. A common factor must be the mud. The spirit of Django permeates these latter-day beauties.
@ Avatar @ Reverend
I donāt hate or even dislike California, Keoma or Mannaja, nor other twilight spaghettiās like The Grand Duel or Dead Men Ride, I just donāt think theyāre truly great. In my opinion they are all pretty derivative and just donāt add anything special to the genre, unless you consider the use of a blade to be an innovative idea.
But that is, of course, a personal opinion, I invite you to disagree ā¦
By the way, I donāt think Duck You Sucker is great either.
And I hate Four of the Apocalypse ā¦
[quote=āscherpschutter, post:24, topic:188ā]@ Avatar @ Reverend
I just donāt think theyāre truly great. In my opinion they are all pretty derivative and just donāt add anything special to the genre ā¦ of course, a personal opinion, I invite you to disagree ā¦
And I hate Four of the Apocalypse ā¦[/quote]
Iāve quoted my granāpappy before when he told me "If we all liked the same things in this world, my boy ā¦ everybody would be trying to shag yer granny"
It would be a strange place indeed. I suppose it depends on whether or not āgreatā has to equate with āinnovativeā. And thereās always the interpretation that one manās derivitive may be another manās homage. In my opinion, which is only different, and in no way more valid than yours, (āscept I have God on my side!) - these three films are a great addition to the genre which has produced a fair amount of dross. (I usually enjoy watching the dross all the same thoā). I agree that they may not be āspecialā in a truely innovative sense - althoā it could be argued, particularly in regards to California and Keoma, some ābigā issues, a questioning of the importance of duty as it relates to the human condition, to observations about racially based hatred, (amongst other things) are freshly and intelligently tackled.
But this metaphysical slant is not necessarily what makes them truely great in my eyes (althoā it must, at least subliminally for me, add to their greatness).
The real reason I think theyāre great is because despite all the mud, the gloom and the pathetic waste of human life I leave these films a better person than I went in. Again, not in any deep and meaningful way - I got out of it what I expected - great entertainment! And thatās enough for me sometimes. Bridget Bardot had a great body - āinnovativeā jusā dont have to come in to it sometimes.
Anyway amigo, itās still pistols (one damned day) at dawn! Whadāya mean ā¦ you hate 4 of the Apocalypse?
So do I.
FOUR is based on two different novels of American writer Bret Harte, and it shows: it falls apart into two different halves; the first half, with the townās people butchering the criminals, is an acceptable Fulci horror show, though far from memorable, truely great, innovative or whatever. Itās the second half I really hate. Oddly enough, it reminds me of the sixties, of the kind of hopi-hippie movies they made in those days, films in which everybody seemed high, stoned or loaded. Carlos Castaneda meets Spaghetti, something like that. And those musical interludes!
Just name place and date, dude!
KEOMA is obviously a different story. It could indeed be argued that duty, racial hatred etc. are intelligently tackled. Moreover the flashbacks in which Nero walks through his own past are beautiful (and yes, probably innovative, canāt remember any other spag with this kind of flashbacks). But still ā¦ I just didnāt like the attempts to add a mythical/mystical/religious dimension to the story and the over-reliance on Peckinpah-like slow motion got on my nerves after a while.
I saw California some 5 or 6 years ago and it was a rotten, fullscreen VHS, so that might have influenced my judgement.
In general I do agree with you that a film doesnāt have be innovative or truely great ā¦ often āperfectly entertainingā or āfun to watchā is more than enough, but I was talking about truely great spaghetti westerns, and I happen to think that the 10-20 best were made in that period '64 - '70 (I put up my favs list tonight).
Her name is Brigitte not Bridget 
I love both Sartana and Sabata, but I fully understand why people may hate these movies. The same reasons why they hate it are probably the same reasons why like it!
Definitely Sartana is not a Leone classic, but it doesnāt try to be. Its not a great classic movie but its fun as hell and does the best job with what limitations it has, especially considering the rediculously low budget of these movies.
I can watch the Sartana movies over and over again because they are so fun to watch. I cannot do the same for a āclassicā SW such as OUTITW. That doesnāt mean I think Sartana is better than OUTITW, it just means that for pure entertainment value, when i just want to sit down and have a good time, Iāll pop in a Sartana DVD.
Well, I wouldnāt say I hate it, but I must admit: itās loose.
It lacks consistence, direction.
At the end, I was left with āHmm, so whatā¦?ā
Is it, really? I wonderā¦
I found Sabata a whack, hated Return of Sabata, but never watched Yul Brynnerās AdiĆ³s Sabataā¦
Iāve heard Bruno Nicolaiās theme and liked it very much, makes me wonder about the movie.
You should definitely give Adios Sabata a chance, itās a really fun spaghetti western with great music by Bruno Nicolai, and Yul Brynner, Dean Reed and Pedro Sanchez make a good cast!
I like Adios Sabata the best; decent budget, excellent music (one of the composers best) and Yul Brynner is a joy to watch as he is so laid back.
Sounds nice to me then.
Well, I think Iāll give it a chance and download it.
(IF I find it in english! I can only find movies in italian latelyā¦ and my italian is awfulā¦)
If you donāt like Paroliniās other SWs, you will have some problems with Adios Sabata too.
Blindman and My Name Is Nobody are two great SWs beyond 1970.
And Nobody is with itās combination of billantly made scenes in Leone style, twilight western motives a la Peckinpah and Trinity comedy elements a fitting end point for the genre. (And of course because of Leoneās involvement)
And the SWs after Nobody ā¦ well I like Four of the Apocalypse and Keoma despite their varied styles, but most if not all of the others are boring, tiredsome movies with tired heroes. California most of all. And Mannaja is simply a lousy western.
And Companeros is also not an innovative film, nothing new in it, but often very well made. But you are right, Blacksheepboy, not much new in the genre after 1970.
[quote=āstanton, post:36, topic:188ā]Blindman and My Name Is Nobody are two great SWs beyond 1970.
And Nobody is with itās combination of billantly made scenes in Leone style, twilight western motives a la Peckinpah and Trinity comedy elements a fitting end point for the genre. (And of course because of Leoneās involvement)
And the SWs after Nobody ā¦ well I like Four of the Apocalypse and Keoma despite their varied styles, but most if not all of the others are boring, tiredsome movies with tired heroes. California most of all. And Mannaja is simply a lousy western.
And Companeros is also not an innovative film, nothing new in it, but often very well made. But you are right, Blacksheepboy, not much new in the genre after 1970.[/quote]
The SW in the 1970ās is a closing genre.
Nothing new in terms of style or storytelling, but quite a few different addings, like Keomaās score pointing out aspects of the plot and Mannajaās blade as his trademark weapon.
Also, Trinity came as a first-class comedy-western, not minding much about the seriousness anymore (which existed even in the most comical films, like The Mercenary and Companeros), and My Name is Nobody was the ultimate (and successful) mix between the serious and the comical.
Other than these few exemples, Iād say the genre was dead and buried.
Unfortunately.
Oh and I forgot to mention, I think Blindman is great too.
It could easily pass as a 1960ās SW.
Quite interesting in terms of character motivation, and very well done.
I keep forgetting that I am a man of God (dude?!!), and therefore I shall be gracious enough to just forgive you your sins instead. 
It was worth showing my ignorance to see that magnificent picture ā¦ thanks. :-*
Sorry for the dude-thing. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Pray for me.