Franco Cleef

DVD, BluRay & VOD
61

I buy FC DVD Rs directly from Franco Cleef himself, and he charges alot lower than exploited, so pooling in money isnt logical for me. Plus he gives me alot of freebies as well.

Also FC is good friends with Ally Lamaj, who doesn’t seem to mind what FC is doing. So I don’;t think we should mind either.

Overall, I think its more beneficial to be a supporter of Franco Cleef rather than a hater. It’s worked for me. As a relative newcomer to the SW genre I don’t know what I’d be doing without franco Cleef.

62

[quote=“Reverend Danite, post:53, topic:413”]Just watched SHANGO for the first time - I’ve had it for a while as a dodgy greek subtitled dvd-r (and been grateful for that, but it’s only been somewhere down the list of ‘to watch’ because of the quality) … but I bought the Franco Cleef version as well (which goes to show that I am prepared to buy the same film twice) should a better (or even a legitimate copy) come out.[/quote][quote=“stanton, post:60, topic:413”]As far as I know the source of Cleef’s Shango is “borrowed” from a german TV broadcasting.
If this was the question.[/quote]
Is Franco Cleef’s Shango DVD-R presented in original 2.35 or is cropped? I have a Dutch tape which has awful fullscreen picture. Didn’t like the film much, though, so I don’t know if I should get a better release or not.

63

It is in 2.35.1.

64

I was making a general point about the principle, or lack of principle in copying DVDs. I used Koch media as an example of a company whose DVDs Franco Cleef obtains and then duplicates and sells to others.
Since Koch media don’t release SHANGO, and since SHANGO hasn’t been copied from a commercial DVD, then it naturally follows that this PARTICULAR film has no bearing on the subject.

Let me remind you what we are talking about:

The rights or wrongs of making copies of commercial DVDs and then selling the copies to other people.

I maintain that for Franco Cleef to copy a commercial DVD and then sell those copies through Xploited is illegal and immoral. What do you think on that point ? My understanding was that you don’t care, so long as you get a copy of the DVD.
Remember, we are talking about the copying of Commercial DVDs. We are not talking about SHANGO.

65

And what do you all think of getting uncut bootlegs instead of cut offcial releases? I don’t think anybody should feel guilty about doing such a thing.

66

I am sorry that you misunderstood, but I wasn’t actually suggesting that we pool our money to buy a Franco Cleef DVD. I was using the concept to try and demonstrate that if someone were to purchase a Franco Cleef DVD and then make lots of copies they would only be doing exactly what he does.

So Ally Lamaj doesn’t seem to mind what Franco Cleef is doing ? I would very much doubt that. Especially as what Franco Cleef is doing, is making copies of commercial DVDs and then selling them on to other people.

Ally Lamaj is connected to Wild East isn’t he ? I’m sure he wouldn’t want anyone copying Wild East’s commercial DVDs and then selling them on to other people. So he’s hardly going to condone Franco Cleef copying Koch media DVDs (for instance) and selling them on.

Any conversation that Franco Cleef and Ally Lamaj might have about DVDs is more likely to centre on what Ally Lamaj and Wild East are releasing next. That way, Franco won’t waste his time on adding an English soundtrack to the Spanish version of KILL THEM ALL AND COME BACK ALONE (for instance), once he knows that Wild East are releasing it. And Wild East will be happy to know that their titles won’t be suffering from any bootleg competition.

Should a major commercial DVD company ever decide to take Franco Cleef to court for clearly breaking the law by copying their DVDs and selling the copies, I hardly think Ally Lamaj standing up in court and saying he “doesn’t mind” is exactly going to swing the case in Franco Cleef’s favour.

The discussion that I am having is not about “hating” or liking Franco Cleef. It’s about the legal and moral rights of copying commercial DVDs and selling them on.
It may be beneficial to you, buying copies of commercial DVDs from Franco Cleef, but is it beneficial to the companies that release those commerial DVDs ?

In response to alk0’s question regarding uncut bootlegs and cut official releases, I would be happy to comment.
I can see that there is always going to be concern when one buys a commercial DVD and it’s got scenes missing. Naturally one would always want the full version.
What you seem to be suggesting is that if a company refuses to release an un-cut version of a particular movie, then everyone has a right to obtain a bootleg copy that is uncut.
However, in my opinion, the question still boils down to the source of the bootleg and not whether it’s cut or un-cut.

If the bootleg you bought is a copy of a commercial DVD, then in my opinion, you should have bought the commercial DVD and not the bootleg. If you’ve traded a copy of the commercial DVD with a friend, then that’s a fairly acceptable grey area that no-one can really complain about, even though it is by definition, illegal.
If the bootleg is a copy of a TV transmission, or a copy of a VHS tape from a defunct company, then quite frankly I think you’re welcome to enjoy the dreadful picture quality at your leisure with a reasonably clear conscience.

I don’t think any of this is about “feeling guilty”. I think it’s about recognising what is or is not acceptable. I buy commercial DVDs, because I think it’s important to support the companies who supply them. The more DVDS that I buy in a particular genre adds to the sales figures and hopefully if those figures are high enough, then the company will recognise that there’s a market for these movies, and want to release more of them. If the sales figures drop, then there won’t be any more releases.
What’s so hard to understand about that ?

67

I was one of the first answering you, and I’m still following the discussion closely. Interesting stuff. I have one small remark:

I think this is more about "feeling guilty’ than about anything else. In one of my first posts I told you that you won’t be arrested for buying one - ore even twelve - illegal copies. Seems you even aren’t arrested (or taken to court) for releasing innumerous copies that might or might not be illegal (that’s the question).

You say: “I think it’s about recognising what is or is not acceptable”. I couldn’t agree more, but an enormous power vacuum, in this case a law vacuum has been created by the media boom, and as far as I can see there won’t be any bounty hunters (then again, why not?) to fill up this vacuum, to uphold this law, so yes, it is about ‘what is, or is not, acceptable’, but when the unacceptible is not punished, it all comes down to one’s personal code of ethics and honour.

What I’m trying to say is that, in this discussion, most people (I’m not just talking about or friends on the forum) are already referring to their personal ethics when defending their point of view. So if you want to convince them, you’ll have to appeal to their ethics, not to the law (the know very well that these things are illegal, nearly every DVD begins with a warning these days!). I can assure you that this will extremely difficult (and frustrating).
You haven’t been very succesful thus far, so it seems.
But I wish you all kind of succes.

And there are no hard feelings involved from my part either, of course.

68

[quote=“IndioBlack, post:64, topic:413”]I was making a general point about the principle, or lack of principle in copying DVDs.
Let me remind you what we are talking about:

The rights or wrongs of making copies of commercial DVDs and then selling the copies to other people.

I maintain that for Franco Cleef to copy a commercial DVD and then sell those copies through Xploited is illegal and immoral. What do you think on that point ? My understanding was that you don’t care, so long as you get a copy of the DVD.
Remember, we are talking about the copying of Commercial DVDs. We are not talking about SHANGO.[/quote]
Well I was talking about Shango - that was the one I’d watched and you brought into the argument. But Ok - on general points …
I thought I’d said it - and explained my stance. I buy the best available copy I can. If that is a commercial and legitimate release then all well and good. I’ll put my dollars down for that one. (As I have done many times). But if there’s a better version out in the ‘grey stuff’ then I’ll buy that version. Morality doesn’t necessarily go hand in hand with big business and it’s naive to think that it does. If a big commercial group can’t get the definative version in the right format/ various dubbings/ aspect ratio and as uncut as possible then it’s probably down to a lack of care on their part than to finance. If they can’t be bothered and somebody else (probably fan-based) can - then fair play to them. I’ll support them morally and financially.
What I fail to understand is where you (and you have now said for a second time) get the idea that I “don’t care” where I get my films from. I don’t necessarily care for the forces of mammon and the dollar bill over a personal morality. But as I’ve told you previously, I do care. And I don’t deliberately go out of my way to rip-off people (including big business) - in fact, far from it. I, like alc0, would buy the uncut (or best available) version - wherever it came from. But I would expect the major’s to release it first. If they did, I’d buy that and not a pirate. If they didn’t - fuck em. So - can we get this sorted … I DO care. I just happen to have a different outlook to yourself. Now, that wouldn’t stop me from buying you a drink over in the saloon, but equally, if you keep banging on about me being uncaring … it wouldn’t stop me tipping it over your head. :wink: God works in mysterious ways.Cheers amigo?

69

It’s probably been said before but Franco Cleef is based in the USA. Many SW titles are public domain Stateside. Therefore, no one owns the rights so no one is being ripped off. Where it gets confusing is when a foreign import DVD is redubbed into english by Franco or another fan. Maybe the foreign company who produced the DVD is being ripped off, but they didn’t own the US rights anyway. Maybe they are acting immorally by selling their product into a market where they don’t have the rights to the film? And what is the situation where some one in a country where the company does own the rights buys a copy from Franco in the States? Who is immoral there? Buyer or seller? Since the advent of the internet the entire world has become one big supermarket and copyright etc has become a very confused area.

I’ll buy the best version of a film available and if Franco Cleef has the best, then I buy from him. If, later on, an official release comes out than matches or betters Franco’s, then I’ll buy that. If it is not produced by a company with the Irish or EU (in my case) rights to the film that doesn’t bother me either.

Before anyone jumps up and down in indignant moral outrage :slight_smile: just have a look in your collection. If you own any of the Japanese SW releases and you are not in Japan, then you have ripped off the rights owners in your own country by importing a DVD produced by a company who only owned the Japanese rights!!!

70

What you are saying is that it is illegal importing dvds and thankfully it hasn’t come to that yet. I’ve got a lot of American dvds in my collection distributed by companies obviously only having the American rights since the same movie is being released by e.g. an Italian company. Is that illegal? Surely not. If that was the case every package I had coming from the States could/would be confiscated :wink:

I have no problems directly with fan dubbed/subbed releases. In fact I welcome them. The only ones I have trouble with is the ones like the FC-‘release’ They Call Him Cemetery. It’s obviously ripped from the Koch Media release. That would be fine if Bruckner at Koch Media hadn’t gone to much trouble and actually included English subtitles with the official release. If FC hadn’t released his ‘version’ how many more copies would Koch Media had sold of their box set? Now that’s the question. We know that Koch Media haven’t sold as many of their previous spaghetti westerns as that could have wished. Any chance that releases like the one mentioned has something to do with that ?!

71

Technically, if the Japanese company only has the Japanese rights, then the sellers are in breach of copyright if it is exported. Note that there is a difference if you go to Japan and buy it over the counter. That is all above board. You can take it back home to wherever for personal use. But buying over the internet means that the seller is exporting - illegal. Luckily for all of us, no one seems to care about small scale internet sales of SW’s etc.

72

[quote=“AvatarDK, post:70, topic:413”]I have no problems directly with fan dubbed/subbed releases. In fact I welcome them. The only ones I have trouble with is the ones like the FC-‘release’ They Call Him Cemetery. It’s obviously ripped from the Koch Media release. That would be fine if Bruckner at Koch Media hadn’t gone to much trouble and actually included English subtitles with the official release. If FC hadn’t released his ‘version’ how many more copies would Koch Media had sold of their box set? Now that’s the question. We know that Koch Media haven’t sold as many of their previous spaghetti westerns as that could have wished. Any chance that releases like the one mentioned has something to do with that ?![/quote]FC wouldn’t possibly had “release” his version of Cemetary if he had known that english subtitled version was coming from Koch. FC used spanish dvd as a source on his project.

73

OK I was sure he used the Koch Media release as source. Didn’t they ‘come out’ more or less at the same time? In any case it’s a pointless release which maybe shouldn’t be ‘marketed’ as heavy at xploitedcinema. Point of it being that it must cost Koch Media some sales of the Halleluja box set…

74

But the same would be the case if buying an American dvd, right? I don’t think anyone in here have any moral scruples about that and neither should they have. Comparing it to ‘borrowing’ print’s from other releases and buying these ‘bootleg’ releases aren’t valid I think. When you buy an American/Japan/whatever release you are supporting the company who makes them and there’s a better chance they’ll release more.

I think the big problem with these FC-releases are the point that they are actually being SOLD. Normally they would just be made by some hardcore fan and the dvd would be copied/traded around and everybody would be happy and the maker would get some credit, but when money is actually charged for it, it tends to piss some people off.

75

Ally Lamaj actually helped Franco Cleef on his Big Gundown project.

76

Try to get both the official releases and the fan-dubbed versions!

Then you wouldn’t have to worry so much and everybody would be happy :wink:

77

If I’m correct Franco has 5 fan-dubbed versions that have also been released by Koch.

Did he get some of the prints from Koch and some from Spanish-language releases?

Anyway, they are: I Want Him Dead, 10.000 Dollars Blood Money, The Big Gundown, They Call Him Cemetery, Vengeance Is Mine.

Not so many after all, the rest from Franco Cleef didn’t even have english subtitles to begin with I believe.

Nothing unusual for someone who collects movies to have a couple of different releases of the same film, and you don’t have to get them all at the same time, and the Franco Cleef stuff you could even get in a trade maybe.

78

I understand about legalities but if a studio has film rights and refuses to release a film on DVD because they don’t see a return on their investment they have just turned their backs on us. What Franco has done is give us SW fans an English language version of a film that is not and most likely will never be released by a legitimate company. I’m sure Franco is making very little profit if any on the work and dedication he puts into these projects. If not for him we would not be able to see these films in English.

79

Amen Tom.Franco Cleef releases the SW projects "for the benefit of English speaking
fans who until now have had no way to view the film in it’s English language version."
I don’t believe anyone knows the relationship that Franco Cleef has with Wild East &
Koch.Franco is a smart guy who isn’t going to create waves with the people at Wild
East & Koch for instance.I believe he has a good relationship them.The only people
that should expand on this point are the parties themselves.I doubt they will since this
topic has been covered exhaustively before.I’m thankful for Franco Cleef & all the other
project men since they make my SW life a joy when an English audio coupled with an
excellent print is released.If I had the talent & time these guys have I would be releasing product myself.

80

Yes, absolutely, it is about feeling guilty. In fact I feel a bit paranoid, but that’s my problem.

[quote=“scherpschutter, post:67, topic:413”]What I’m trying to say is that, in this discussion, most people (I’m not just talking about or friends on the forum) are already referring to their personal ethics when defending their point of view. So if you want to convince them, you’ll have to appeal to their ethics, not to the law (the know very well that these things are illegal, nearly every DVD begins with a warning these days!). I can assure you that this will extremely difficult (and frustrating).
You haven’t been very succesful thus far, so it seems.
But I wish you all kind of succes.[/quote]

I think you’re mistaken in thinking that I’m trying to “convince” people of anything. That’s an impossibility - you can never win an argument on an internet forum, because internet forums are full of people with entrenched views. Like mine. So when I used the term “debate” early on, I really should have used the term “discussion”, because that’s reallly what I meant. I wanted to hear other people’s views that were set against my own, and the results have been excellent. So my success has been greater than you can imagine.

My hope is that the ability to buy foreign DVDs, and the ability to edit them continues. My fear, is that this could all come to an end by people openly selling DVDs that they have clearly stolen. Which is what the Franco Cleef/Xploited deal could cause.

Someone mentioned the illegality of Internet Companies selling DVDs to foreign buyers. This is quite correct. When I, in England, buy a German DVD, the law is being broken, because the German distributor only has rights to the release of that DVD in their own country. The internet company is acting illegally, and I am aiding and abetting them.

Several things could happen that would make the current happy situation difficult:

  1. All DVD companies could be forced to add more severe copy-protection to their DVDs. Meaning that the DVDs would no longer be editable.
  2. Internet traders could be stopped from selling DVDs outside their country of origin. Meaning, for instance, that you’d have to travel to Germany to buy your Koch DVDs.

Maybe I’m just being paranoid, but I believe this could happen, and that it would inflict a terrible blow on the kind of hobby that Franco Cleef and others enjoy.

Let’s not forget that the software that was available to enable the extraction of files from DVDs for the purposes of editing has already been legally challenged and removed from the internet.
And let’s not forget what happened in England when pre-recorded VHS tapes first came out, and lots of backstreet companies flooded the market with the sorts of movies we like. It wasn’t long before big business jumped in and persuaded the Government that the industry had to be regulated. This caused a situation where all Videos had to be submitted to the British Board of Film Censorship, before release. Since the cost for submission of each title was in the £1000 range, this put a lot of great companies out of business. The saddest loss for me was when Techno-Film vanished, and all their excellent Widescreen Spaghetti Westerns went with them.

Paranoid, me ? You bet.