For a Few Dollars More / Per qualche dollaro in più (Sergio Leone, 1965)

Also, the Colonel seems like a pretty upright guy. Not the type that would be into that sort of thing.

I totally agre that the flashback is not Lee as a younger man. Peter Lee Lawrence has no resemblance to Lee. It is nothing more than defining the reason Colonel Mortimer is pursuing Indio. The Colonel has morals and is only avenging the death and rape of his sister.

It crossed my mind once or twice that it could be LvC the man in the flashback, but then I thought it was too sick and couldn’t fit with Colonel’s character. Besides, he was shot quite badly, chances are that that man wouldn’t survive.

I think it’s quite possible. Just because Lawrence doesn’t look like Van Cleef, it does not mean he isn’t (can you imagine a young Van Cleef?). Cox is right in saying that flashbacks normally feature the character who is having it, so I don’t think it’s impossible that the Col. Mortimer was having an incestic relationship with his sister. I wonder if Leone intended this or it was just a slip-up in the screenplay?

It isn’t possible, at all, in my estimation.
Why? Because not enough time passes between the events in the flashback and the rest of the film to explain Van Cleef looking so much older, while Indio only has slightly grayer hair.

Also, in the flashbacks, Indio is portrayed by Volonte (made up to look younger). If the young man in the bedroom was supposed to be Mortimer, why wouldn’t Leone have just used Van Cleef (made up to look younger), as well? It certainly would have made sense for him to do so if the character was supposed to be Mortimer. It would have been the logical choice for many reasons (including the film’s budget). But, Leone didn’t cast Van Cleef. Why? Because the character isn’t Mortimer…simple as that.

Cox loves to stir up this sort of discussion by the way. He is famous for seeing latent homosexuality in the simplest of handshakes in a film! But, that is what makes reading his books and listening to him talk about films so interesting and entertaining—you just never know what he is going to come up with, or why. I often think Cox says stuff he knows isn’t "right’—just to see what sort of reaction he gets.

No one else thought about that Van Cleef actually says it’s he’s sister?

And also, Indio looks pretty much the same in the flashback so it’s impossible that Mortimer could have been that much younger. And why would you cast Peter Lee Lawrence of all people to play the young Lee?

They look all the same don’t they ;)?

[quote=“Silence, post:186, topic:327”]No one else thought about that Van Cleef actually says it’s he’s sister?

And also, Indio looks pretty much the same in the flashback so it’s impossible that Mortimer could have been that much younger. And why would you cast Peter Lee Lawrence of all people to play the young Lee?[/quote]

Precisely my point, amigo!

High Noon!

All good pints chris, but the Col. had to be there otherwise he wouldn’t have remembered it.

OR!!!

is Cox having it totally wrong? I just browsed through FFDM and unless I missed something I don’t think there is any scene where LVC is remembering the rape/murder. They’re always Indio’s memories.

It must not have been what Mortimer has seen, it could also have been something what he is imagining. He knows what had happened even if he wasn’t there. There is no rule that every flashback must be a personal memorization.

I’m sure if we think about it we find more flashbacks in film history which tell us things the protagonist hasn’t seen himself. Not to mention the flashbacks which tell a lie (or two).

You’re refereing to Stage Fright aren’t you?

I think you may be right. Now that you mention it, I can’t be positivly sure that the Col. does have a flashback…

Still though, I think there may have been a misunderstanding between Indio and Mortimer. Mortimer probably thinks that Indio both raped and killed his sister, since he wasn’t there to witness it. But in fact Mortimer’s sister killed herself while being raped.

Well…Indio did cause the death so I guess thats the same thing hehe.

Still wondering why she didn’t kill Indio with the knife. I know she probably thought here life was meaningless at that point but she still could’ve killed Indio before killing herself. Although I’m sure being raped somewhat interferes with the ability to think logically.

[quote=“Bill san Antonio, post:190, topic:327”]OR!!!

is Cox having it totally wrong? I just browsed through FFDM and unless I missed something I don’t think there is any scene where LVC is remembering the rape/murder. They’re always Indio’s memories.[/quote]

Yes, you are correct, Bill.
As I have seen this film more than any other movie–I was thinking the same thing (that they are always Indio’s memories) when I read Cox’s statement.
Again, I think Cox just likes to stir things up once in awhile, whether he really believes what he is saying, or not.
It is his old Punk ethos coming forward, in my humble opinion.

I personally don’t think it’s a subject that should be read into too much. Leone obviously intends there to be a certain amount of vagueness. Indio is responsible for Col’s sisters’s suicideand rape. That’s all. cox just needed something to make his reading interesting.

What knife?
She kills herself with Indio’s gun. You know, I have always thought that she was trying to kill Indio with the gun, but his wriggling around on top of her caused the gun to go off too early.
For one thing, when the gun goes off she has a shocked look on her face and her eyes are wide open. It isn’t a cinematic rule, or anything, but when someone in a film is about to shoot themselves, on purpose, they normally close their eyes. I have never thought that she killed herself on purpose. But, that is just my take on the scene.

Ah my bad, it was the gun how can I forget? So I guess she kills herself by accident, which makes the misunderstanding between Indio and Mortimer even worse.

In Indio’s defense he could’ve said: “I raped your sister, but she killed herself…by accident!”

no, no,no it’s not accident. The whole thing about the rape is very psychololical. In my interpetation El Indio as he’s seen in the movie is born in the rape scene. Otherwise he would be just a ordinary bandit but when colonel’s sister kills herself during the rape he becomes perverted character who has sexual trauma about the situation. Why El Indio is having these flashbacks instead of Mortimer. -because it’s important part of his life.

Ok, too drunk to write more now…

[quote=“Bill san Antonio, post:198, topic:327”]no, no,no it’s not accident. The whole thing about the rape is very psychololical. In my interpetation El Indio as he’s seen in the movie is born in the rape scene. Otherwise he would be just a ordinary bandit but when colonel’s sister kills herself during the rape he becomes perverted character who has sexual trauma about the situation. Why El Indio is having these flashbacks instead of Mortimer. -because it’s important part of his life.

Ok, too drunk to write more now…[/quote]

I understand your point about Indio and what the rape/death means to him. But, I think you might have misunderstood what I said.
The rape part is not an accident, obviously. The accidental part is when Mortimer’s sister is killed.
I still think that she was trying to kill Indio and not herself. I think it is the realization that she was trying to kill him that sends Indio over the edge.
But, I can also see where if she had only meant to kill herself that would have had a devastating psychological effect on Indio, as well.

The different ideas about those flashback scenes are interesting. If Mr. Cox is right FAFDM is one of the weirdest movies I’ve ever seen.
IMO only Indio has the flashbacks not Mortimer. His sister killed himself probably because she couldn’t live with the shame afterwards. Mortimer couldn’t know if she was killed or made suicide. The Col. Mortimer we see in this movie was of course born after he found out about the death of sister. He became a bounty hunter and started to track down outlaws like Indio.

Is there anything mentioned besides of the flashback that Mortimer knew that Indio was responsible for the death of his sister? The only hint must have been the scene with the clock. It would be interesting to know if Mortimer was really on a vengeance trip or only dismissed the money cause he found out near the end that Indio was responsible for the death of his sister.