The Football Thread

The Saloon
2041

[quote=“El Topo, post:2039, topic:527”]But they lost so they weren’t the better team IMO they played more but in the end they couldn’t overcame Chelsea tactics, and when and the chace to do so they failed, to be better you have to score more, Chelsea had one corner in the all game and they score, BM had 14 more or less, and only score one goal, in the few defensive flaws Chelsea had the all game, players like Robben, Ribery Gomez are good ones (can decide agame on their own) but lacked that last spark, to make them shine even more, and be remembered in the future.

An exemple, who’s better Robben or Bergkamp, Bergkamp of course[/quote]

Bayern had more ball possession, more (minor) chances, they missed a penalty and played most of the time on the opponent’s half, so I guess you can say they were the better side. But, like I said, they didn’t create enough to be decisively better. If you hit the woodwork three of four times and the opponent’s goal keeper makes three or four really miraculous saves, you may say it was bad luck, you deserved more, but that was not the case last night. Chelsea delivered a heroic game, a defensive game yes, but still a heroic one. Therefore you can’t say they really stole the game.

I agree about Bergkamp, one of the five or six best Dutch players in history. For me:

  1. Cruijff, 2. Van Haneghem, 3. Van Basten, 4. Rensenbrink, 5. Bergkamp, 6. Gullit (Robben would be somewhere around place 10-12, Van Wolfswinkel somewhere around place 1000-1200)
2042

[quote=“scherpschutter, post:2041, topic:527”]I agree about Bergkamp, one of the five or six best Dutch players in history. For me:

  1. Cruijff, 2. Van Haneghem, 3. Van Basten, 4. Rensenbrink, 5. Bergkamp, 6. Gullit (Robben would be somewhere around place 10-12, Van Wolfswinkel somewhere around place 1000-1200)[/quote]

Yes Bergkamp a great one, was a delight to seem him play such class and finesse he had, Wolfswinkel still young and he can learn more, I think he could go up a few number in your classification, he’s in the right place to do that. Hope he scores in todays cup final

2043

At what time is the kick-off of this Cup Final?
I might be able to watch some of it, I had a lot of Portuguese football on my TV this year: my distributor (Belgacom) lost the national football competition contract to their main rivals (Telenet), so they came up with Spanish and Portuguese football. I don’t know if the Cup competion is included.

If Wolffie goes up 100 places every year, he might catch up with Huntelaar, which wouldn’t be bad at all.

2044

[quote=“scherpschutter, post:2041, topic:527”]Bayern had more ball possession, more (minor) chances, they missed a penalty and played most of the time on the opponent’s half, so I guess you can say they were the better side. But, like I said, they didn’t create enough to be decisively better. If you hit the woodwork three of four times and the opponent’s goal keeper makes three or four really miraculous saves, you may say it was bad luck, you deserved more, but that was not the case last night. Chelsea delivered a heroic game, a defensive game yes, but still a heroic one. Therefore you can’t say they really stole the game.

I agree about Bergkamp, one of the five or six best Dutch players in history. For me:

  1. Cruijff, 2. Van Haneghem, 3. Van Basten, 4. Rensenbrink, 5. Bergkamp, 6. Gullit[/quote]

Gullit only #6? He was always more important for me than van Basten

2045

[quote=“scherpschutter, post:2043, topic:527”]At what time is the kick-off of this Cup Final?
I might be able to watch some of it, I had a lot of Portuguese football on my TV this year: my distributor (Belgacom) lost the national football competition contract to their main rivals (Telenet), so they came up with Spanish and Portuguese football. I don’t know if the Cup competion is included.

If Wolffie goes up 100 places every year, he might catch up with Huntelaar, which wouldn’t be bad at all.[/quote]

Or Van Nistelrooy .

Its 17h00m here, one hour more there

Hey where’s Rijkaard placed in your classfication.

2046

And what a goal that was. One of the finest headers I’ve seen in a long time and proves what a decisive player Drogba can be. His antics (diving, whining, play acting) can often make him an unpopular figure here but he is one of the finest strikers who have played in our league in recent years, no question. And he tends to step up in the big games. Pulling that one out of the hat last night could well be his finest moment but, in fairness, it was typical of his contribution since he’s been at the club.

2047

Never could understand all that thing about the diving Phil, I see it been done by every player, every one (some more yes), believe me more than 90% of the hits every player feels aren’t strong enough to put them down, yes there are some that go to the swiming pool alone, but apart from that, if a palyer feels an hand at the back, or a leg inside the box, players just go down.
I did the same in my time, unfortenately for me, most times (almost all times) I was the one that put them down with more or less intensity.

But yes Drogba great last night, one chance one goal, and scored the decisive penalty, great player, and that’s why he will be remembered

2048

[quote=“El Topo, post:2045, topic:527”]Or Van Nistelrooy .

Hey where’s Rijkaard placed in your classfication.[/quote]

Okay, I’ll make a top 20

2049

Great I’ll make one to (for Portuguese players that is). Must remind me to watch some films amog all the football

2050

Sheer bliss :smiley:

2051

Okay, here’s my Top 20 of Dutch players (Don’t worry, Jonathan, the golden boys are all in):

Holland:

  1. Cruijff (Ajax, Barcelona), 2. Van Haneghem (Feyenoord), 3. Van Basten (Ajax, Milan), 4. Rensenbrink (Anderlecht), 5. Bergkamp (Ajax, Arsenal), 6, Gullit (PSV, Feyenoord, Milan), 7. Rijkaard (Ajax, Milan), 8. Israel (Feyenoord), 9. Van Beveren (Goal keeper, PSV), 10. Keizer (Ajax), 11. Robben (PSV, Chelsea, Bayern), 12. Van der Kuijlen (PSV), 13. Jansen (Feyenoord), 14. Neeskens (Ajax, Barcelona), 15. Krol (Ajax), 16. Van Persie (Feyenoord, Arsenal), 17. Sneijder (Ajax, Inter), 18. Seedorf (Ajax, Inter, Milan), 19. Gerrie Mühren (Ajax), 20. Brokamp (MVV)

Here are two alternative lists (one from a journalist, one from an ex-player, they have listed names of players that I have never actually seen playing, like lenstra, Wilkes and Bakhuys, I have omitted these names)
http://members.multimania.nl/Gerbie/llvoetballers.html

Here’s my all-time list. sorry to all Brasilians, I don’t think Pele was the best player ever. Also sorry to Phil: his favorite Bobby Moore just fell out of the Top 20. (And again I haven’t listed players like Di Stefano, Matthews, etc., because they played football before I started watching it) .

  1. Maradonna (Arg), 2. Cruijff (Hol), 3. Beckenbauer (Ger), 4. Zidane (Fr), 5. Messi (Arg), 6. Pele (Bra), 7. Puskas (Hun), 8. Platini (Fra), 9. Eusebio (Por), 10. Best (N.Ir), 10. Charlton (Eng), 11. Netzer (Ger), 12. Gerson (Bra), 13. Van Haneghem (Hol), 14. Cristiano Ronaldo (Por), 15. Overath (Ger), 16. Mattheus (Ger), 17. Rivera (Ita) 18. Luis Figo (Por), 19. Xavi (Spa), 20. Mazzola (Ita), 21. Moore (Eng)

NOTE:

For those still wondering how the name Johan Cruijff is pronounced:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/JohanCruiff.ogg

2052

[quote=“El Topo, post:2047, topic:527”]Never could understand all that thing about the diving Phil, I see it been done by every player, every one (some more yes), believe me more than 90% of the hits every player feels aren’t strong enough to put them down, yes there are some that go to the swiming pool alone, but apart from that, if a palyer feels an hand at the back, or a leg inside the box, players just go down.
I did the same in my time, unfortenately for me, most times (almost all times) I was the one that put them down with more or less intensity.[/quote]

The going down when they have only been touched syndrome annoys me just as much Topo to be honest. A thing nearly all modern players are guilty of, you’re right. I hear players openly say in interviews “I felt a touch so I went down” and pundits talking about “there was contact so it was definitely a penalty”. None of these incidents in question would be considered fouls anywhere else on the field and Refs will almost always wave play on if they happen on the half way line. Moreover, since when did football become a non contact sport? Surely a foul occurs when a player has been unfairly impeded not just when another player comes into contact with him.

For me the whole thing stinks of unsporting behaviour and no one in the UK likes it. They might defend it when a player in their own team does it but they scream blue murder when it is done by an opponent. Maybe it’s a British thing. It does seem that most other countries accept it as part of the game. I just think it reduces a beautiful game to a pretty dingy level at times. Thankfully, as a supporter of a lower league team I don’t see it so much. It seems to be a phenomena of the higher echelons of the game here.

2053

It’s not a British thing, Phil. I Holland most people hate it too, and foreign players who have this habit of diving, are told (by team managers, coaches, journalists, etc;) to stop with it. Unfortunately we have one of the ‘best’ divers in the world, Arjen Robben.

I remember by the way that Andy Möller was punished for excessive diving when he played for Borussia Dortmund, so in Germany they aren’t too fond of it either.

2054

It’s simple cheating, and therefore I hate it. And it is sad that nowadays cheating seems to be absolutely natural amongst players

Problem is again that especially in football one cheat can decide a game.
Or a simple referee error.

2055

[quote=“scherpschutter, post:2051, topic:527”]Here’s my all-time list. sorry to all Brasilians, I don’t think Pele was the best player ever. Also sorry to Phil: his favorite Bobby Moore just fell out of the Top 20. (And again I haven’t listed players like Di Stefano, Matthews, etc., because they played football before I started watching it) .

  1. Maradonna (Arg), 2. Cruijff (Hol), 3. Beckenbauer (Ger), 4. Zidane (Fr), 5. Messi (Arg), 6. Pele (Bra), 7. Puskas (Hun), 8. Platini (Fra), 9. Eusebio (Por), 10. Best (N.Ir), 10. Charlton (Eng), 11. Netzer (Ger), 12. Gerson (Bra), 13. Van Haneghem (Hol), 14. Cristiano Ronaldo (Por), 15. Overath (Ger), 16. Mattheus (Ger), 17. Rivera (Ita) 18. Luis Figo (Por), 19. Xavi (Spa), 20. Mazzola (Ita), 21. Moore (Eng)[/quote]

Quite interesting.

Interesting that you have Overath in it, who is internationally less known than Beckenbauer and Netzer (his big rival in the national team).
Had to google van Haneghem, the only player whose name was unfamiliar. Neeskens and Rep are always the first which spring to my mind of the 74 team.

If you like name 20 or 30 more without ranking which you think are the next in the line.

P.S. If you don’t write Matthäus like we Germans do, you should substitute the ä with ae (for which ä is only an abbreviation). Matthaeus
(or simply “Loddar” how he is called mostly today :wink: )

And Cruijff is in Germany also always written as Cruyff. Don’t know why.

2056

I remembered we had talked about this before and there was this list:

It does not include Netzer nor Overath, at least I was wondering about the absence of Netzer. And there are 2 more “legends” not in Scherp’s list: di Stefano and Garrincha

2057

Nobody likes cheating I guess, but I at least try to put all those cheating things in the right perspective. I don’t thing is the all modern players do it thing, its more television, today we film everything from the tunnels to the pitch, places that were sacred in football terms in the past, appear in our telly easy, so we can see everything, every play is shown from 500 different angles minimun. when I was a kid only if I was near the pitch watching the game I could hear a player calling son a bith to the ref or other guy, now´, but things weren’t different in the past just less shown.
Football style in national terms is a bit blured these days, theres less differences between country football styles, its all about the type of coaches now, but in places like Portugal, where football depends more on technic and style, than strenght, its normal that players fall more specially the strikers, I’ve seen players like, let’s say Ronaldo, any of the Ronaldo’s (but I can mentioned Futre, Chalana, both suffered career ending injuries, and many others), being hit merceless during a game without the refs doing nothing, so I guess they can fall after a touch.
I played in the national youth leagues in the first divisions, playing agiaisnt Sporting and Benfica, (who brought kids from the African countries, with 3 or 4 more years of age than the allowed, and put them playing agaisnt us), I was never told to dive or anything, and I never knew any coach that said or teach that, but I was never told the contrary.

I also don’t like to watch those players that turn against those who just fall inside the box, like if they never had done some wrongdoing themselves, any mtf who did to me in game was fucked for the rest the match

Any way if any of guys, played in some dusty pitch in the midle of nowhere with more than 30º in the sun, like I did, in the regional leagues, falling would be quite easy belive me.

2058

Best Portuguese players, I only include those i’ve seen playing, Eusebio would be an obvious choice, but I never watched him playing live or TV, so it will be unfare to other big name in the past I’ve never seen

So here it goes,

1- Paulo (not Paolo) Futre (Sporting, Porto, At Madrid); -2 Cristiano Ronaldo (Sporting MU, RM); 3- Chalana (Benfica, Bourdeaux); 4-Figo (Sporting, Barcelona, RM Inter) 5- Paulo Sousa (Benfica, Juventus, Dortmund, a very underrated player); 6- Rui Costa (benfica); 7- João Viera Pinto (benfica, Sporting); 8-Jordão (benfica, Sporting); 9-Manuel Fernandes (Sporting); 10- Humberto Coelho (benfica), 11- Nene (benfica); 12-Pedro Barbosa (Guimarães, Sporting); 13-Simão Sabrosa (Sporting, enfica), 14-Pauleta (PSG); 15- Jaime Pacheco (Porto, Sporting); 16- Nani (Sporting, MU); 17- Sá Pinto (Sporting); 18- Gomes (Porto); 19- Veloso (benfica); 20- Carlos xavier (Sporting)

2059

[quote=“El Topo, post:2058, topic:527”]Best Portuguese players, I only include those i’ve seen playing, Eusebio would be an obvious choice, but I never watched him playing live or TV, so it will be unfare to other big name in the past I’ve never seen

So here it goes,

1- Paulo (not Paolo) Futre (Sporting, Porto, At Madrid); -2 Cristiano Ronaldo (Sporting MU, RM); 3- Chalana (Benfica, Bourdeaux); 4-Figo (Sporting, Barcelona, RM Inter) 5- Paulo Sousa (Benfica, Juventus, Dortmund, a very underrated player); 6- Rui Costa (benfica); 7- João Viera Pinto (benfica, Sporting); 8-Jordão (benfica, Sporting); 9-Manuel Fernandes (Sporting); 10- Humberto Coelho (benfica), 11- Nene (benfica); 12-Pedro Barbosa (Guimarães, Sporting); 13-Simão Sabrosa (Sporting, enfica), 14-Pauleta (PSG); 15- Jaime Pacheco (Porto, Sporting); 16- Nani (Sporting, MU); 17- Sá Pinto (Sporting); 18- Gomes (Porto); 19- Veloso (benfica); 20- Carlos xavier (Sporting)[/quote]

I remember Chalana very well from the '84 team, great player (small guy, long hair if I’m not mistaken), but to me not on the level of Futre and C. Ronaldo. Futre … I don’t know. Fabulous player, but he didn’t do enough with his talents, he should have won cups with Barcelona, Real Madrid or an Italian team. But he’d be among those 20-30 others Stanton mentioned. From Germany at least Mueller (Gerd) and Seeler would be among them.

By the way: Even in Holland there was a lot of discussion on the spelling of the name of Holland’s greatest player ever, Cruyff was very common in newpapers, magazines, etc. But then it was declared that it’s officially Cruijff

2060

Hmm… I’d put Koeman on the Dutch list and Romario on the international list.