Yes, and that coming closer we got with the 2005 cut, which is not that different in the end.
The 2005 cut is in the end the theatrical version, but improved in parts which were obviously wrong (Paco’s altered death speech) with the other known scenes added. Only exception is the odd bunkhouse scene, which is a narrative sin, and rightly got deleted.
After having watched the theatrical version about 20 times it is impossible for me to watch the Knockin scene without the vocals, and the raft scene is here at the right place (I even can’t believe that it ever was considered not to come early in the film, at a point at which Garrett is far less embittered than later). Of course these are 2 things which could be altered in the Turner version.
Novecento do you really want that bunkhouse scene in the film? It is as wrong as a scene can be in a film. So far no one could give me an explanation for the inclusion of a scene which violates the narrative viewpoint of the film.
I remember Seydor saying that in his book - I clearly need to re-read it. Perhaps I don’t need to watch the theatrical cut after all
However, aside from the obvious changes that many have mentioned, there are a few things that really irk me about the Seydor cut in terms of simple aesthetics. I mentioned them over on another forum and am copying them here again.
Firstly:
The cockfighting scene when the flurry of feathers transitions to the shot of the guy being rounded up by Garrett on his horse [is] far better in the complete Preview version than in the shortened Special Edition.
Secondly:
One more interesting change is the replacement of the shot of the bucking horses when Billy walks out to the outhouse with a shot of Billy walking through some pigs. While the shot of him walking through the pigs is a nicer image, the shot of the horses ties in well with the following shot of the horses in a much calmer state immediately after Billy exits the outhouse. The horse shots bookend the outhouse sequence well and it’s great how they are frantic before Billy retrieves the gun in the outhouse but then calm down once he exits as if representing the calm before the storm.
Then specifically to your points:
In the Turner Preview version, the owner of the brothel/saloon knocks a glass over and this transitions beautifully into one of the prostitutes turning the hourglass over. In the Special Edition we lose this nice transition because the Ruthie Lee scene has been added before it. Instead we get a decent audio transition from the sound of the glass being knocked over to the sound of Ruthie Lee knocking on Garrett’s door, but it is not as strong as the original. I’m not commenting on whether the scene should be there or not for narrative purposes, but rather just on the unfortunate sacrifices that were made to the editing when scenes were lifted/added/re-arranged for the two non-Preview (i.e. the theatrical and 2005 Special editions).
In the Turner Preview, there is a nice audio transition from the song being sung in the outpost scene to Garrett sitting on the bank as if the lyrics to the song are in his thoughts. In the 2005 Special Edition, while there is a nice additional shot setting the scene before we focus on Garrett, the cut from the preceding scene (now the one with Billy and Alias fending off Chisum’s regulators) is abrupt. We also lose a final shot in that scene that focuses on Billy’s face almost as if in slow-motion. It’s a great shot that adds a quiet tranquility to the end of the scene that then transitions beautifully to the scene with Garrett cooking his food on the frying pan.
Going by the mantra of dialogue basically being icing on the cake (i.e. a great film should still be pretty good even when watched in a language one doesn’t understand), then [Jerry] Fielding makes a good point [that the scene speaks for itself]. However, the reference is more oblique with song lyrics than dialogue so perhaps it’s easier to get away with it. Personally I found it obtrusive even when Leone included just the single word “Yesterday” in OUATIA, but I remember quite liking the inclusion of the lyrics to “Knockin’ on Heaven’s Door” here. I think I’ll need to watch both versions back-to-back to compare. Either way, it’s one helluva great scene and I’m glad no-one actually says anything!
I would say it’s fine to watch the 2005 edition providing that you have already seen Peckinpah’s 1988 version. What’s sad is that the DVD with both versions was presented in a manner such that the 2005 edition effectively displaced the 1988 version as the one to watch. I believe Seydor was quite dismayed by this and never intended for that to happen.
Well, apparently “Junior Bonner” is going to be released on blu-ray soon so you never know. Having said that if PG&BTK doesn’t contain a lovingly treated 1988 version then I’m not interested anyway. There is the potential for this to be a really deluxe release with multiple versions of the film (all four?) and extra features, but that’s pretty wishful thinking
Well I just watched the 2005 cut, and I thought it was still great but obviously lacked the superior credit sequences, and the amazing bunkhouse scene.
But I definitely prefer the version of ‘Billy’ played at the end of the 2005 cut!
Yes. I liked seeing the burning of the McSween house, but I thought the character of Billy was way, way off and I don’t care for the film. If I’m not mistaken, Gore Vidal was responsible for the teleplay on which the screenplay was based. He did a much better job the second time at bringing the historical Billy to life.
Yes the characterization was different but, apart from in a couple of places, I didn’t mind it. There’s an interesting slo-mo death scene too which is well edited/shot and prefigures Peckinpah somewhat (I think Stanton mentioned this somewhere earlier).
I watched both versions of Pat Garret & Billy the Kid today and yesterday. I have to say that the 1988 version is much better for me, only thing I’m really missing is the Knocking on Heaven’s Door in Slim Picken’s death scene.
1988 -10/10
2005 - 9/10
I felt like I understood more about the film now. It has some surreal nuances I didn’t get before, like Peckinpah himself in the end as a coffin maker. He is like grim reaper or just playing himself, it’s a very surreal scene. Many have said that Dylan’s Alias is unneceassary character, I see him as a kinda greek chorus, bystander who sings out the thoughts of other people.
Really love this movie. Not without flaws, but the overall melancholy feeling, music and especially James Coburn (who should have gotten an Oscar, tbh) really make it work. I actually like Kristofferson, even if he’s a bit old for Billy - he’s past his glory days and his end is inevitable.
