Watched this film today. As Stanton said over a decade ago, this film was way ahead of it’s time. It’s far from a masterpiece and still somewhat sanitized but it’s a fun watch and has aged better than you’d expect for a hays code western. It’s a far cry from the usual snoozefest of the 50s. The characters, the pacing, the plot - everything outside of the soundtrack and action feel way ahead of their time.
Snoozefests, oho, what a word …
Most of the 50s westerns which I really like, are barely snoozefests, and there are many of them.
Westerns in the 5os were mostly different to 60s westerns, they had to be, but there were also enough which had that forerunner feel.
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Yeah, I find 1950s westerns to be incredibly boring. Rio Bravo might be the most genuinely boring western I’ve ever watched, it’s bland and has aged like curdled milk. Anthony Mann’s films aren’t far off either, there’s not a single good one. They’re all remarkably bland films that do nothing well. Recently I also watched “The Big Country”, beautiful cinematography and visuals but the story was insanely boring with no redeemable qualities. The Hays Code encouraged westerns to tell overly sanitized uninspired stories where it feels like nothing is happening 90% of the time. There are exceptions like High Noon which is great but there are exceptions to every rule.
I can understand the appeal of 50s westerns, they take you back to the 50s time period and there’s a charm to 50s accents, soundtracks and sensibilities, but the vast majority of them aren’t good films in the slightest.
Ok, but I think you don’t understand 50s westerns in the slightest, cause otherwise you would think differently. I prefer 60s westerns too, but there are many, many form the decades before which I enjoy very much.
The Hays Code’s influence has nothing to do with inspiration, it was a factor, but not as much as you think.
But if older westerns are boring, then they are indeed a waste of time for you.
Rio Bravo actually has a lot of incredible style, actually last time I re-watched it I discovered qualities I never noticed before. It has still some dumb humour, but I can easily understand why it is a favourite of many film lovers. Same for The Searchers.
Mann’s westerns are imo all good (except the mediocre Cimarron), no masterpieces though, not one above 8/10, but the amount of Spags which are above 8/10 is also beneath 10.
I understand 50s westerns very well. They are characterized by how uneventful and sanitized they are. Mann’s films are the perfect example, there’s nothing remarkable about his films other than how genuinely boring they are. They are a 5/10 at best.
The Hays Code, with its restrictions, highly incentivized directors to create a very specific type of film. Very few westerns broke away from that bland formula - High Noon, Shane, Gunfight at the O.K. Corral, and The Magnificent Seven (technically a 1960s film but still within the Hays Code era). There are good 1950s westerns, but they are the exception to the rule.
I couldn’t disagree more, if someone told me it’s one of their favorite films my first thought would be that they haven’t seen many films in their life or that they’re nostalgic for the 50s. I do not believe it’s a good film in the slightest.
I disagree, some of the best westerns ever made are from the 1950s. I can think of quite a few more other than the obvious ones like ‘Shane.’ For example, there’s Vera Cruz, Warlock, Last Train from Gunhill, Gun for a Coward, The Tall T, The Bravados, Gunman’s Walk… Even the B-productions like ‘Ambush at Tomahawk Gap’ are far superior to any of the B-westerns from the 60s or 70s.
Back to ‘One Eyed Jacks,’ I’ve got to say that it’s grown on me over the years and I now regard it as one of the best ever made. Brando did a terrific job.
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree, man. I think “Shane” is a good film, but just barely - it’s a 6.5/10. Ultimately, it’s still not good enough to be considered great, in my opinion. All the great westerns came out during the 60s and, to a lesser extent, the 70s. That era was undeniably the peak of the western genre, and it’s not even close. Other eras have produced good westerns, but never truly great ones. At the end of the day, it’s a matter of taste - especially considering how Italian westerns were the polar opposite of 50s westerns stylistically and went on to set the standard for westerns afterward.
It’s definitely better than you’d expect for such an overlooked film. Brando’s performance is fantastic, as is Karl Malden’s, and the dynamic between their characters feels far more modern than 1961. Aesthetically it also has some really nice filming locations. Overall I’d give it a 7.5/10.
I don’t think they did, they simply offered an alternative. American westerns produced during the 60s and 70s still have more common with American westerns of the 50s than with spaghettis.
I just listed some great ones from the 50s above, so yes, we will have to agree to disagree.
I don’t think you’re right at all about the 70s. Directors like Sam Peckinpah, Clint Eastwood, Don Siegel, Michael Winner, and even John Sturges leaned more toward the spaghetti western style than the traditional 50s western in the 70s. Spaghetti westerns definitely changed how people viewed the western genre moving forward. While there were still some boring 50s-style westerns in the 70s, such as those involving John Wayne, they were the exception rather than the rule.
We had that before, and The_Man_With_a_Name is right, apart from Eastwood in parts, the US directors did not care about SWs, they thought they were just cheap junk. There is a clear line of how the western developed from the silents over Stagecoach and Ford, to Hawks, Daves, Mann and from them to Peckinpah, Penn, Altman. Even Hang em High is a typical late 60s US western with a barely visible SW influence. I actually see nothing in it which couldn’t be derived from early 60s westerns, and from the ones before.
The one big exception is Two Mules for Sister Sara, but even in that one the directing is much more US than Spag. The other Eastwood westerns which show a Leone influence in parts are High Plains Drifter, The Outlaw Josey Wales and later Pale Rider.
For Sam Peckinpah, watch his TV series The Westerner, and then ask who influenced whom.
The 60s US western is developed from the 50s westerns, with of course later a greater freedom in portraying sex and violence. And the 70 westerns went on further with that.
And even John Wayne began with True Grit over Big Jake and The Cowboys to The Shootist to use the twilight western patterns set by Peckinaph
The SWs did their own thing, and the US western did their own thing in the same span of time. And that gave us a lot of great westerns parallel.
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This is btw an extremely odd idea given the incredible reputation Rio Bravo and his director Hawks have.
I know a lot of very different people who love Rio Bravo.
Tarantino is also a big fan.
And I btw have no nostalgic feelings for the 50s, and have seen awfully many films from all decades, continents, genres.
And have meanwhile probably watched every western of historical, commercial, cultural or whatever importance at least once. And I can easily enjoy westerns from all decades, even from the silent era, which suffers from the lack of sound.
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If you believe that Hang Em High doesn’t have any visible Spaghetti Western influence, then there’s nothing I can say to change your mind, but you’re wrong. The Wild Bunch would never have existed the way it did without Spaghetti Westerns. The same goes for all the Westerns Clint Eastwood starred in during the 1970s. Of course, there are differences, as they were made in different countries with distinct cultures and sensibilities. American Westerns tend to have a lot of dialogue, while Spaghetti Westerns favor visual storytelling, for example. But the 1970s American Westerns drew heavily from Spaghetti Westerns, more so than from 1950s Westerns. The stylized violence, more over-the-top stories, larger-than-life characters, the harsh, lawless depiction of the West, and the gray morality - this combination of elements simply didn’t exist before the Spaghetti Western. If you believe these influences didn’t shape the American Westerns of the 1970s, then you must think that the consistent similarities between the two are mere coincidence, which to me doesn’t make sense.
I respect Tarantino but he has a lot of takes I disagree with. He also describes the film as a “hangout movie”, I believe, which I think is accurate. 90% of the film is people “hanging out” and having meaningless conversation, ridiculously boring film.
With the exception of one scene, it really doesn’t feel like a spaghetti at all. The aesthetics are completely American.
I disagree, The Wild Bunch doesn’t have very much in common with spaghetti westerns.
Rio Bravo is John Carpenter’s favourite film. I guess he hasn’t seen many films, or is just nostalgic for the 50’s? Lol
They are American, but an American-style implementation of a combination of elements that originated in the Spaghetti Western. They are still derived from the Spaghetti Western and leaned more towards it than the 1950s Western. I never said they were identical, just heavily influenced by them. They don’t feel like Spaghetti Westerns because they aren’t, but there are clear parallels. They share many elements, though implemented differently, as one would expect given that they were made in culturally different countries.
Nostalgia is likely a significant factor, yes. Also, you mention John Carpenter as if he’s an authority on film lol… most of his filmography is 6/10 B movies.
Ha ha, no not really …
Rio Bravo is not hated by millions …
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But there’s no evidence for this. The ideas for The Wild Bunch were already conceived before any spaghetti westerns hit the US market. The revisionist westerns of the 60s and 70s developed the same way American cinema in general did. The bleakness of the American westerns of the 70s reflect the mood of the time. They coincided with the publication of revisionist histories, the Civil Rights movement and the Vietnam War, which all had a far greater influence than any Italian western.
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By the time it was rewritten by Peckinpah, Spaghetti Westerns had already made their mark on the U.S. market. According to Leone, Peckinpah once told him, “Without you, I would never have thought of making the films I have made.” While Leone had an ego, there is no reason to believe he would lie about this. Peckinpah also said he liked Leone’s films.
Yes, but it is also stylistically influenced by SWs. It can be both, not necessarily one or the other.