Mystery of railway station esperanza/navajo joe


(pedro james) #61

This Mystery is crazy… lol


#62

Crazy or not, you probably have to continue to look for any clues, even very small ones, to increase the probability for revealing the secret of ESPERANZA :slight_smile:

This foto from the same French site shows that there was a railway scene shot in Capranica, Viterbe,Italy in at least one spaghetti western The Five-Man Army from 1969.
By the way the telegraph poles come in double version, but the configuration on each pole is vertical as it was near ESPERANZA just indicating you probably can’t rule out that there could be a configuration more similar to ESPERANZA’s vertical 4 X 2 per pole somewhere else along the railway tracks in Italy.
If the ESPERANZA scene with the locomotive arriving before the close up was shot in Italy, it ought to be with another train.


(pedro james) #63

Once again your on the case of the mystery of ESPERANZA and i thank you for so much effort being put into trying to solve something that i started several years ago… As i have said more recently due to work schedules cannot get back on the case until New Year… But rest assured i,m heading for the Hogar Pensionista en PINAR as soon as possible to leave no stone unturned in the village there… At least we may be able to rule in or out connection to PINAR STATION lol… Also i have another lead that may or may not be fruitful … From my research in the past with ref to Esperanza i rule out Italian connection to the filming of the train coming into Esperanza due to lack of trees and vegetation … The Italian film locations appear to have a lot more trees… But as you have stated in the past we must not leave any stones unturned or any lead sway us away from our ultimate gol… WHERE IS ESPERANZA STATION… Pedro


#64

Yes I agree on the Italian vegetation being to rich and green, at least in that picture. I have also before “traveled” by Google Maps 3D and not found anything very interesting in the railways around Rome.
In this regard I think the landscape near Piñar station is more promising, but not the distant hills as discussed before.

I hope you find anything among the Piñar pensionistas !


#65

About this picture once more. As probably mentioned before I find the rather smooth flat top of the hill(s) very unusual for Spain. You can see some contours of edges of hills “within” or below the top indicating it is not just a flat wall (of course) , but it therefore seems strange to me that the top is so flat when there are variations below the top . A very broad rather flat hilly area with seemingly a lot of trees.
What is most likely, the background is manipulated or ESPERANZA is not located within reasonable distance from Guadix, on Guadix-Granada, Guadix-Almeria, Guadix-Alicante or other tracks linked to those lines.

Regarding the telegraph poles, they have this special configuration BOTH when you see the train some hundred meters away arriving at the station AND when the train with the identification number 040-169 stands still at the station, thus making it less likely that it is another train in the shot some hundred meters away.

So the telegraph poles configuration 4x2 is very important.


#66

I re-watched on Blu Ray recently, and noticed for the first time the red poppies growing on the small embankment beside the tracks … Poppies are also seen at other Guadix area locations in the film … so this for me confirms, almost certainly that all scenes are Spanish, rather perhaps an alternate unknown Italian location.

What time of year do the flowers grow … and in which areas of this region? :thinking:


(pedro james) #67

Hi there Amigo Runner… yes been down this road before and i fully agree my gut feeling is the Mystery is in Granada province… As stated in the early stages of the Esperanza mystery… Poppies here in abundance in MAY/JUNE when filming took place according to sources of information… I keep going over and over old ground where there is a crossing/shepherds track/farmers track in the photo of the train coming around the corner… look carefully and you will see what i mean… Shame about the mountains in the backdrop of the train coming in… BUT i still struggle to believe they super imposed the backdrop… but who knows… IF we can crack the mystery between us we will be infamous lol but on the WEB forever… lol… Pedro


#68

Definitely not a superimposed background … there’s no reason for the makers to do that.


(pedro james) #69

Just a theory from Runner…


#70

From our angle, you have to choose between some appearantly unlikely alternatives, and ESPERANZA being located somewhere else than within reasonable distance from Guadix area is one alternative and manipulated Piñar scenes is another.

There seems to be no area near Granada or Almeria railways where there are such smooth/flat hills with trees. I can’t remember anyplace in Spain that I have seen that resembles that.

In a future you may be able to let a more intelligent Google Maps software search and match the EXPERANZA background landscape including hills and if they are NOT manipulated in the move receive a perfect enough match somewhere on this earth (I rule out the moon or Mars, Venus etc, and so far also a different Universe ) :slight_smile:
Such future software seems at least more likely than that the mystery will never be solved.


#71

What supports the Piñar station theory :

  1. It is within reasonable distance of Guadix, around 32 km with train. It is not likely that the 040-2169 locomotive was filmed in a completely other area. It is stated that it was transferred from Delicias, Madrid to Guadix in 1966, but I haven’t found any good candidate near Madrid nor Colmenar Viejo where the did do some filming for Navajo Joe.

  2. Piñar station has an appropriate configuration of the railway tracks, possibly with the exception of maybe a too short distance with two parallel tracks in the north-west direction but that might have been changed since 1966.

  3. There is a photo from around 1960 from Iznalloz where the telegraph poles had 2 horisontal armes with 4 nodes each and thus 8 lines and ESPERANZA station had also 8 lines but another vertical configuration 4x2 but they DO match in number of lines so they could have been all connected. Near Guadix around 1966 and after that there were always 5 lines in a vertical configuration 2+2+1 exept for on the La Calahorra-Alquife line where there were only 2 nods in vertical configuration for some years before they also changed to 2+2+1 according to my studies of severely SW and other movies.

  4. Roughly the landcape around the Piñar station match ESPERANZA, since in the “forward” direction, south-east along the incoming railway tracks, you can see a rather flat ground with little similar vegetation and slope.
    To the north-east of both stations there is more hilly and higher ground with some vegetation, and a distinct not far away hill can be seen at a similar place in both cases. However there is a slight rocky edge in that direction near the railway tracks in the movie, but the may have altered that terrain for example for making space for the current station buildings. Now at Piñar station there are traces of old removed buildings there, which possibly could be from those two buildings seen in the movie.

In the south-east of the station you can see a more flat and slightly undulating ground with vegetation and also in the movie.

It is however in these respects the biggest obstacle for the Piñar theory occurs. The distant background south-east with the much higher “rocky” mountains some kilometers from Piñar station do not well match the ESPERANZA background which hills are lower and in my view suspiciously EVEN/SMOOTH from left to right, not commonly seen in southern Spain in my view. And in the south-west direction of the ESPERANZA station there are seemingly no hills at all whereas there are so some kilometers from Piñar in that direction.

You probably only can explain these obstacles with manipulation with backgrounds in the movie or similar seemingly unlikely actions, if the Piñar theory is correct.
But what is the (better) alternative ?

  1. As pictures from the movie and a short distance Piñar station posted earlier in this forum thread show, the scene with Navajo Joe in the locomotive and showing a hilly background before arriving to the station has a rather good match in some respects indicating that the may have filmed at that spot near Piñar station. Here the hills/mountains match better but they still seem not so high in the movie and more hillike than “rocky”.

  2. I haven’t found any railway station within reasonable distance of Guadix that is even fairly close to Piñar as a candidate for ESPERANZA.

Happy NEW ESPERANZA to all !


(pedro james) #72

Well done Runner,Well explained to date, Happy new year and looking ahead to a conclusion over Esperanza Estacion…


#73

A mini mystery within the mystery.
Why can’t you see more of the telegraph poles (and their nodes) on this picture from or in connection with the movie - taken from the French website.

There should be a full length pole in the picture to the left of her shoulder as it is here : http://www.forotrenes.com/foro/download/file.php?id=301334&mode=view Did they “mess” with the poles ?


(pedro james) #74

Amazing new photos Runner… that track to the left of her shoulder as seen in train coming into station a real mystery as track no longer there in our new photos of PINAR station… Thing nodes may be on pole but not 100% visible… or maybe someones having a laugh at us lol. BUT real good research buddy… I really appreciate your input… While i,m still alive i will not be beat by the mystery… As i said before we could be internet heroes to solve ESPERANZA… Claim to fame lol.


#75

“… that track to the left of her shoulder as seen in train coming into station a real mystery as track no longer there in our new photos of PINAR station”

I am not sure what you mean by that (my English is not 100 %).
The railway with its 2 visible tracks seem fully compatible with Piñar today (and with the existance of a third track not seen here), but if you are referring to the little path crossing both railway tracks there it may be possible to explain that it is gone nowadays, even if we don’t know exactly why it is gone.

By the way, you can also see that the platform in that picture seems to be covered by wooden planks.


(pedro james) #76

Sorry sent wrong signals… As you stated track no longer there… Iguess back then was a crossing for farmers goats and sheep… Hopefully window coming for me and heading to Hogar Pensionista soon


#77

I have a theory within the theory of Piñar that might explain that “new” foto :

Assume that they really HAVE manipulated the backgrounds in the movie, then they could have had a motif to manipulate the same background in that foto. And - here is the “clever” thing - they may have cut off or shaved the top of those mountains in the foto BUT neglected/forgotten to “reconstruct”/paint the top of the telegraph pole which seems cut in the foto.
You can see that the top of the cut telegraph pole is at the same visual height as the top of the background hills !

So the cut telegraph pole could be a clue that is compatible with the manipulation theory ! In the movie they must have been more careful and included the intact telegraph poles and only manipulated the background mountains in a more efficient way than in the foto.

I find this logical, even if it appears unlikely but the mystery has to have an unlikely explanation in my view.


#78

I must add that below the picture it says "Nicoletta Machiavelli, Andalousie, printemps 1966. "

So an unknown source says it is a Andalucia fotograph…


#79

Even if the photo with the cut telegraph pole near the station could imply that the manipulation theory is correct and therefore supports Piñar, I just studied the movie once more.

First, maybe not very important though, you can se the top of some trees that seem to be across the railway tracks on the opposide side of the little post office building and not far away from a visible telegraph pole, all this in the scene when the wagon with the 3 girls arrives to Esperanza station after they having been rescued by Navajo Joe.
How come you cannot see these trees from other Esperanza shots in the movie ?

Secondly and probably more intersting is a scene along the railway tracks with people on the Esperanza platform to the right in which you can observe that the shadows indicate that the sun’s rays come from around east, or rather a little bit more close to east-northeast, if you assume that it is the Piñar station location.
On the same time the length of shadows indicate that the sun is rather high up, i.e. a rather long time after sunrise.
I am not sure now in which directions you can observe the sun in the morning in Andalucia, say around 9-10 a clock in may-june (but with the old time schedule before summer time in EU), but this item could be a clue to witch direction the railway tracks are positioned.

The shadows could however also be compatible with another direction of railway tracks if the scene was shot in the corresponding time in the afternoon, i.e. with the same angle of the sun (i.e. regardless of it was rising or descending). Then it couldn’t be Piñar.

Since there are some of other theoretic “main” directions of the tracks that are ruled out by the angle of the sun, the finding rises the probability for Piñar slightly, but not much and only if the sun could be seen in around east or east-southeast direction late in the morning in may-june in Andalucia :wink: