Mystery of railway station esperanza/navajo joe


(pedro james) #1

ESPERANZA in the film Navajo Joe 1966.We know many scenes were filmed on and near location to Guadix Station.
There is a lot of information on social media and internet that ESPERANZA was close to Guadix station but living not that far away from Guadix station it is impossible as Guadix geographically is lower down than ESPERANZA being on a higher plain (altiplano) Take a look at the photos/filming.
Now the plot thickens from here. Was station ESPERANZA For 5 years myself and a few others have been trying to resolve the mystery of railway station especially built for the film set ( I think not) as the film Navajo joe was on a real tight budget as records show but again maybe it was built for the film. Then we have more mystery to throw into the cauldron it appears that ESPERANZA station has two tracks which may indicate it was filmed on a mainline. Guadix to Almeria has single track. Guadix to Baza has single track then the landscape changes beyond.
Another thing bugging us location hunters is what appears to be a double track line could actually be a change over line to allow trains to pass each other on a single line track( this is the normal action on single line track)
A lot of filming was done near Colmenar near to Madrid where lots of filming/films we,re made. Nicoletta Machiavelli in the film was contacted by an amigo but alas she could not remember other than she thought it was approx an hour away but she was not sure.So ive checked out all stations within 1 hour but nothing came to light. So getting to the point. Are any members on SWDB FORUM OR OTHER living near Colmenar the old western town. Can you help.I,m not on twitter but how about someone trying the younger part of the cast. Thanks for reading Pedro


Misterio estacion esperanza
(Uberti45) #2

Nicoletta passed in Nov correct?


(Asa) #3

She did indeed, yes.


(pedro james) #4

I did not say my amigo contacted her recently…this was in the past… But if your thinking is correct then this is sad and another actor gone forever


(JonathanCorbett) #5

Considering the skilful transitions from De Laurentiis western town in the Rome vicinity to Yucca City (Tabernas Desert) and - at the end of the film - other Almerian landscapes, are you absolutely sure that Esperanza station wasn’t an Italian location?


(pedro james) #6

Hi there JonathonCorbett… Firstly. Thank you for your time and reply to the mystery of :ESPERANZA:.I note what you say and welcome any input to solve this mystery. The film NAVAJO JOE with Burt Reynolds was a very low budget film in its time. It used a lot of Italians in the production of the film(behind the scenes and production team) but to date all outside scenes in the film we,re at locations in and around Almeria,Guadix,Colmenar,Torremocha… I have now researched and looked for this station for 6 years without any luck…I live near Guadix where some filming was done and know this area and Almeria locations very well. Also researched railway stations near Colmenar and Torremocha with the best maps that i can trump up… The problem we have is many old railway stations no longer exist due to development or economics… I WELCOME ANY SUPPORT from forum members…“Time and tide wait for no man” and as this rolls on getting more difficult to locate… Someone must know but where is ESPERANZA…There must be a wizzard out there to solve this … I am looking for a member near COLMENAR OR TORREMOCHA to completely rule out stations in these areas…
For me its a mystery with what appears to have double tracks coming into the station which maybe a main line station or was ESPERANZA built especially for the film at a location then dismantled… Due to costings my gut feeling is a railway station clad with timber and fittings. BUT WHERE… Thank you again


(pedro james) #7

http://www.forotrenes.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7574&start=600 All relevant photos are here on this page… Scroll down and look for Pedrofreila 3rd May 2015


(Stanton) #8

That’s relative.
It surely was not an expensive film, but it also was surely not a very cheap film. And compared to other Spags I assume it was a decent budgeted film. Most likely Corbucci’s biggest budgeted western up to this time, maybe up to 1968. The fact alone that it was shot in Spain and also had financial support from an US studio tells this.


(pedro james) #9

Hi There Stanton… Thank you for your reply. I,m only going by what it says on the internet ref costings and what they state is low compared to other films around this era give or take a couple years…My main aim is to try to find Esperanza… To date nobody in the world has cracked the code for Station Esperanza…
I live near Guadix station famous for so many films and trolled every station within an hour or so but nothing… So many stations that look similar and terrain where the train and Burt Reynolds is coming around the bend but nothing.But for sure it was not Guadix station as too far down in the valley…One of the original trains used in some westerns comes out once a year but guess you already know that… Any ideas is always welcome and comments. Cheers Pedro
Also have checked out the main line Guadix to Granada, again nothing looking like Esperanza


#10

Hi @pedro_james !

I am from Sweden (also living in Malaga some time every year), interested in “spaghetti”-locations since a year back, and stumbled on your forum post after having giving up the Esperanza station search after just one day or so. But since it obviously is such an exciting mystery I have tried to do better than that for a few days full time “ocupation” :slight_smile: . Here is my current standpoint :

The Navajo Joe movie scene with the bandits trying to rob the train is obviously taken with the train on the nowadays abandoned/no more existent railway between La Calahorra station and the mines of Alquife. You can also see the now existing main railway track going around I think south-east direction to Almeria close by in one short movie moment.

In the scene where the train is on its way to the Esperanza station, although not showing the station, simultaneously you see a silouette of Joe/Reynolds with a really green big rather flat or undulation area behind him suggesting not too high altitude. You also see a distant hilly area which maybe could be identified by a skilled person.
My guess is that you see the hills/mountains behind Dolares, Ferreira y La Calahorra. https://www.infoom.se/photo_album.php?ivg=0&type=1&t=&file=https://www.infoom.se/mysite/filer/9801/navajo_joe_gron_slatt_med_okanda_berg_i_bakgrunden_80467.jpg&width=622&height=286

But there is also a similar green area in the background of the station house so both shots could have been taken on areas connected in reality not far from each other.

On the opposite side of the station house in the movie across the railway tracks there also are some small buildings. That side is the one that is a bit hilly, a hilly edge, close to the railway. Joe/Reynolds rides away up on that side which has a row of olive trees a little bit away.

The double railway tracks at the station seem at least in the beginning straight going away from the station in the same direction that the train arrived to the station.

The Esperanza station’s distant background hilly slopes have a lot of, presumable olive, trees, and also on the top of the distant hill area there are trees of some sort, as you can see when the the camera zooms in the train arraving to the station. Thus it must be in an area with the appropriate climate etc.
https://www.infoom.se/photo_album.php?ivg=0&type=1&t=&file=https://www.infoom.se/mysite/filer/9801/esperanza_station_80180.jpg&width=542&height=286

The bandits later leave the station with only the locomotive. Seconds later you see a shot taken in front of the locomotive with snowy mountans in the backgrund which should be Sierra Nevada. This could indicate that the locomotive could have left the Calahorra - Alquife line on its way on the main track towards Guadix. The other backround mountains/hills support this.
That is just another inication that they were filming a lot around Guadix area with this locomotive.

An expert Howard Hughs states that filming locations shifted, but railroad was near Guadix. https://books.google.se/books?id=M6D3AgAAQBAJ&pg=PT126&lpg=PT126&dq=esperanza+station+in+navajo+joe+location&source=bl&ots=pH5nMPGR6u&sig=LkmQv5R8bm61ByBm1XZPN-Jm-T8&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiF7vOW7MvcAhVFEiwKHWYqA30Q6AEwB3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=esperanza%20station%20in%20navajo%20joe%20location&f=false

My best guess, I hope, for the moment after a few days of Google 3D and Google street view research on several stations along the different railway tracks around Guadix including the abandoned lines La Calahorra-Alchife and Guadix- Serón is that there should be a certain not so low probability for the Esperanza train station to be located somewhere on the abandoned La Calahorra-Alchife, or more precisely somwhere here, see the link.
As you can see in the link Google Street view is available on this part of the former railway. I think that you also can see from above 2D that there could have been space for a second track a short way which in my assumption was just laid out parallel.
This possibly “phony” track should be closest to the Esperanza station. The locomotive traveled only the opposite track in the movie which is logical if that was the only real main track.

So the scenes with Joe/Reinolds on the locomotive aproaching Esperanza station and with distant hills on one side (on the left side of the train in its travelling direction) could match with the hills/mountains behind Dolares, Ferreira y La Calahorra if the train had left La Calahorra Station and was on its way to Esperanza station lying at the place in question on the La Calahorra - Alchiefe line.

The topography near such a station may be a problem, and on street view it looks rather plausible but maybe too flat ? There were buildings not only on the Esperanza station house but on the opposite side behind the “parked” locomotive. All are gone if my location theory is correct.
The distant background hilly view behind the arriving train to Esperanza station is another question - does it look like the hilly Charches area on the other side of the plaines ?

The railway line from Alchife to La Calahorra takes some more bends to the left so maybe there are an alternative location that also could be considered.


#11

But the picture is FAR from clear.

A filming location policy related question is where this overview scene is taken (before Joe/Reynolds takes over the train). My simple web camera snapshot below of the DVD-based movie picture on the TV though lacks the important distant at least 3 big different mountain shapes, rather vague silouettes. But their shapes in the movie are difficult for me to match with the mountains you can see from different places fairly near Guadix, as the Google 3D view shows them. If you look at the DVD at the left of the mountains it actually reminds me of the Sierra Alhamilla, seen from north. If that is correct then the scene must be taken a long way from Guadix indicating you must be also very cautious with conclusions for the Esperanza station location.
(After that when Joe/Reynolds actually fights for the train the background suddenly seems more like the traditional near Guadix etc.)
https://www.infoom.se/photo_album.php?ivg=0&type=1&t=&file=https://www.infoom.se/mysite/filer/9801/navajo_joe_tag_81064.jpg&width=606&height=366

Another possible clue is that the poles along the railway at and near the Esperanza station have as much as 8 “hubs” in the movie, but once before in the movie, when the train is hindered by stuff on the railway track before the attack from the bandits and it defenitly is near La Calahorra a little bit in on the old track to Alchiefe, the poles obviously have only 2 “hubs” - at least the closest pole that you can see.
This could perhaps reduce the probability for the station to be located on that nowadays that abandoned line which was my best guess.
In the scene where Joe/Reinholds takes over the train there seems to be a pole with 5 hubs. It is not taken on the La Calahorra - Alchiefe line.

On this picture at the station you get a glimpse to the lower left a contour of background mountains. That at least seems in line with the background seen in the angle more straight in direction of the railway tracks (as for example in the scene with the arriving train to Esperanza station) . So hopefully there are no “tricks” here.
http://www.forotrenes.com/foro/download/file.php?id=301395&sid=c1eba2eb886945f1f6ef2ed608eaec65

You also later get another view of the distant background hills in another shot of the town people on the platform. A moment later the camera changes direction completely so you can observe 2 tracks and on the same time the hilly edge on the other side of the station which seems to have an elevation of say 5-10 meters and with green grass surface. That is where Joe/Reynolds later rode away. In one short scene you also can see that it is not completely flat behind the station house but a slope.

On the DVD in this scene you can see that there actually is a third track parallel to the others and vith a buffer stop. This maybe could elevate the probability for the Esperanza station to have been located near or at a real station.
https://www.infoom.se/photo_album.php?ivg=0&type=1&t=&file=https://www.infoom.se/mysite/filer/9801/navajo_joe_tredje_spar_81065.jpg&width=590&height=270

All this makes the location question more confusing, but the background hills/mountains seen when the train arrives to the station have to be identified and also the little hilly edge, if it still exists, opposite to the station house.


#12

In For A Few Dollars More there is fore sure a railway station Tucumcari on the abandoned La Calahorra - Alquife line and you can detect very exactly where it must have been located. Obviusly the station house was made by wood and any clear trace of it has vanished, at least from the spot on Google views. So in that case they most likely built a station house and then removed it. But there is only one railway track in that movie and probably on most parts of the in those days existing La Calahorra - Alquife line, and the station Tucumcari in the movie seems very simple.

The realisation of actually building a wooden station is in favor of a another built Esperanza station house but that station had much more other extravaganza with 3 tracks (2 and one sidetrack) and buildings also on the opposite sides that together imply that it probably was some existing infrastructure before the station was arranged and used in Navajo Joe. The somewhat hilly terrain close to the station especially on the opposite side also is a problem.

Since the locomotive in the movie Navajo Joe arriving to the station is identified as connected to the the area, the Esperanza station should most likely have its location within reasonable distance from Guadix and on a track connected with Guadix. There were 8 hubs for the 8 pole wires at the Esperanza station but they were only 2 at Tucumcari in For A Few Dollars More and interestingly only 2 (with 2 hubs) in another scene in Navajo Joe on the La Calahorra - Alquife line. This strengthens that the La Calahorra - Alquife line in those days had poles with only 2 hubs and 2 wires, and that Esperanza was located elsewhere but still most likekly within reasonable distance and reachable by railway to the Guadix area.

Another circumstance is that the 2 passing through tracks at Esperanza station do not have as much fresh gravel as the main track Guadix - La Calahorra had in the movie. They look relatively worn down in general. This implies that Esperanza probably not was located on a main railway track, at least not a big main track.

Maybe there are more clues regarding the Esperanza station location in other spaghetti western movies (and or other old photographs), especially regarding number of railway tracks, number of pole hubs and wires, the landscape and possibly the station buildings on any side ?




A “movie scene chronological” analysis August 6 2018 after one week of research :

In the first scene with the train in Navajo Joe the poles have 5 nodes and wires on the left side in the direction of the train. It could indicate that the train is on the abandoned Guadix-Baza line in direction to Guadix, maybe on the plains of Hernan Valle.
Next the train probable has passed Guadix out on the plains, still 5 nodes on the poles even on this main line Guadix - Almeria, and still on the left side. The US Mail wagon is bright yellow, but with a vertical dark stripe at the right side.

Then you see the train from a low angle but very near with the identifican number 040-2169 though not so clear, but the US Mail wagon seems different in colour more dark.
Next you see the train in a narrow “canyon”-like passage but rather blown by man for the railway. Here the poles with 5 hubs are on the right side of the train, an indication that it is going north or northeast in direction to Guadix or rather on its way to Hérnan-Valle and there actually is precisely such a passage around 1.4 kilometer north of Guadix station. In the movie there is a shot through a ravine which you also can detect on Googlemaps 3D and with view west-southwest of a recognizable area.

Then the train is in wide turn to the right with a caracteristic steppe like vegation on the left hill side. The poles have 5 nodes so it is probably in direction Guadix - Baza. There is a spot around 4 kilometer after Guadix station that fit (and that is filmed another time later in the movie - se below !).

Just before the bandits try to take over the train it obviously is on its way to Alquife, that is a complete different area and direction compared to the previous scene. The poles have 2 hubs and wires. Roughly 1 kilometer after La Calahorra Station in the direction to Alquife the bandits attack the train. From there you can also observe several poles along the Guadix - Almeria line, that is between La Calahorra station and Huenaja station.

Then the train i standing still an a completely different place, since it is above a big slope on its right side in the direction of the train. Next comes a panoramic overview shot, which obviously is ment to have been taken at the same location, but the train is now standing still in the oppposite direction. Here the background mounatin silhouettes are puzzling as the left mountain reminds of Sierra Alhamilla and the view seems to fit with a shot taken within reasonable distance of the area with the villages Las Alias, Sorbas, Los Ramos, El Chive, El Pilar, El Puntal, Cinta Blanca, Gochar or thereabout. But an exact proper location seems extremely diffucult to find in that large area. The poles are on the same side as in the earlier scene when the train was heading north around 4 kilometers from Guadix in a similar close enviroment, but this time the train is in opposite direction. If it wasn’t for the puzzling distant mountain silhouettes it was abviously going back in direction to Guadix. A very close analysis of the ground and vegetation near the train and the position of the poles show that it was indeed the same location in the two different scenes ! And the location itself can actually be find on Googlemaps 3D view around 4 kilometers from Guadix station.

All this seems to imply that the background with mountain silhuoettes must have been “faked” in the movie, maybe they wanted it to appear to be a different spot than the earlier on same location in the movie? To many clues imply that the location was the same and is around 4 kilometers away from Guadix station in direction Baza.

In the next moment with the train standing still the location is once more another, on the track between Guadix and La Calahorra where Joe/Reynolds takes it over.

Then the train arrives to Esperanza station with the locomotive identification number 040-2169 but now there are 8 hubs and 8 wires along the railway on the right side in the train direction, and double tracks with the one with more fresh gravel on the right track in the train direction and that track is used by the train but is opposite to the station parallel to the one closest to the station platform. There seems to be a short third side track as well that ends just before the station and with a wagon on it. The terrain close on the opposite side of the Esperalda station building has a stony edge and there are 2 other buildings there. Back of Esperanza station house there is a little slope down. But this side of the station has distant very green cultivated areas not completely plain but not hilly either except for a long distance away.

After the bandits in Navajo Joe take over the train the second time, in this case at Esperanza station and they leave with the train, there is a following scene with a snowy Sierra Nevada in the distant background (see the DVD with better quality), but there is also a short moment a probable “milestone”, a little pole in wood with the numbers 178 over 280 ! In Spain you at least often se “milestones” along roads in kilometers, but maybe this is a clue of exactly where this scene was shot, even if may not be important for exactly where the Esperanza station was located. My guess is that they mean 178 kilometers from a place in one direction, and 280 kilometers to another place (possibly in the other direction but I don’t know).
You also se that the poles had 5 hubs and 5 wires on the right side in the direction of the train.

https://www.infoom.se/photo_album.php?ivg=0&type=1&t=&file=https://www.infoom.se/mysite/filer/9801/navajo_joe_tagbild_med_milestone_troligen_i_kilometer_79834.jpg&width=606&height=286

On this page http://josequiles.vzpla.net/tren.htm they state different distances in kilometers starting with Lorca. Baza is 133 km away. So I “traveled” 45 km further in the direction of Guadix along the abandonded line via a googlemaps-based measuring tool and after 133 + 45 = 178 km I was at a spot which perfectly matches the “milestone” seen on the movie !

So we know that IN THE MOVIE the train was supposed to have left Esperanza station and somewhat later was not very far from and north/northeast of Guadix, at a spot about 7 kilometers or so after Guadix along the abandonded line Guadix - Baza . These 2 scenes of course might have been taken on completely different days on very different locations, but it still confirmes that scenes in the movie were taken on both sides of the Guadix area.

But the Esperanza station location most likely is somewhere else, not near Guadix, where there were 8 hubs on the poles, double railway track + an extra short side track that ends just before the station, a little bit more hilly on the opposite side but with some olive trees than back of the station with its close slope and more vast cultivated areas. Since one mountain panoramic background seems to have been faked in the movie you cannot be sure that for example the Esperanza station backgrounds were 100 % genuine either, which makes “the mystery” even more complicated.


Is it the Piñar station ?

I have the last 2 weeks “traveled” via Google 3D view and street view along probably over 1000 kilometers of existing and abandoned railways in the southern parts of Spain, including all fairly near Guadix area, even many going from Madrid and a only a few seemed to be fairly promising candidates for have been the location of Esperanza station in Navajo Joe.
In some respects Almendricos station some distance from Lorca seem promising, for example on YouTube there is a video showing many poles with 8 hubs along the Águilas-Almendricos line, with only a slight difference in their design from those seen near Esperanza station in Navajo Joe, but the rather high distance from a possible station house to the curve to the left of the track probably must rule that one out.
The Fiñana station in the south-east direction (towards Almeria) on the Guadix - Almeria line seemed to be another candidate, but the background mountains do not fit well enough.

The Piñar station in the direction to Guadix on the railway line to Granada from Guadix has several matching similarities including double tracks between the platforms and a third track (going behind one platform opposite to the current station house), and a similar turn to the left of the track in direction Guadix in a very promising short distance to the station platforms, very roughly 100 meters as in the movie. The tracks may have been somewhat adjusted since 1966, for example the third sideway track may later have been prolonged and connected in the other side as well, the double track may have been shortened at the same time, and the platform where the Esperanza station buildings were located could have been narrowed due to these changes. In the movie due to the camera angles there was only a shirt glimpse of the third sidetrack (but with a wagon and buffer stop, thus ending just before the station). Obviously the main track was the one that the train used in the movie, which matches today’s main track arriving to its station without changing tracks.

Nowadays the station house is on the same side as some older buildings presumably were located in the movie if it is the same location and those buildings perhaps could have been the real railway station buildings in 1966 even if they looked in rather poor condition. The Esperanza station house was located on the other, that is opposite side when the platform could have been wider.

The autovia A-308 now goes partly along the railway track in direction to Guadix but was built much later after Navajo Joe was shot which explains why it could not be seen on the left side of the train in its direction when it in the movie approaches Esperanza station in the short scene with Joe/Reynolds looking down from the locomotive at his own left side. On that side view there are several interesting matching similarities with a train arriving to the Piñar station from the Guadix direction. Several poles with wires can be seen out on the fields in similar positions and direction both in the movie and on Google Street view from A-308 . A lonesome tree as well.
The distant background hills in the same scene with Joe/Reynolds on the locomotive looking down may as well be the same as the those seen on Google Street view. The shape of the whole landscape, including a ditch/small “barranco” parallel to the railway matches well enough to suspect that the scene was actually shot there.

So the train direction in the movie fits with a train arriving to Piñar station from Guadix thus probably making filming less complicated if the train in the movie really arrived to a very near location being also the Esperanza station, but other train scenes sometimes were contradictory as far as the identified train direction and actual filming locations were concerned.

The stony edge on the right side of the main track on the opposite side of the Esperanza station train some meters away in the direction of the train, is somewhat hard to see how well it matches with the different Google tools but at least this side seems a bit hillier in both the movie and on Google.

A slope on the other side of the station, that is behind Esperanza station house also exists at the Piñar location according to Google. But that space may be more cultivated and even nowadays. There also may be some space on the ground on that side to have constructed a tiny western town.

The background hills/mountains seen straight behind the actually arriving train to the Esperanza station in one scene in the movie may not match well enough, especially to the left where the mountains/hills end in the real world. One background view in the movie when Joe/Reynolds stands beside the station building seems strange since there are no Sierra Nevada mountains visible, only cultivated areas in the foreground without hills.

My conclusion after the 2 first weeks of research, mainly using Google 3 D and street view and sources on the Internet is that Piñar station with a not very high but still reasonable probability, the highest of any candidate so far, could be the actual location for the mysteriously located Esperanza station, but there are still some serious doubts especially concerning the distant background view. The location seems to be within a reasonably distance from the Guadix station, around 35 kilometers by train. The train scene with side landscape backgrounds in Navajo Joe placed just before actually arriving to the Esperanza station in the movie fits well with a train a very short distance, just over 1 kilometer, east of the real Piñar station.

Look at this video after some 50 seconds from Piñar station.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFRtE_Ip7fw


(pedro james) #13

Hi There Runner Bo Egwall…Firstly I must thank you for all your time and effort in trying to solve the mystery of ESPERANZA Station in the Pelicula NAVAJO JOE/ JOE EL IMPLACABLE… I know of the time involved with research,going over and over the same things time and time again looking for a new clue… Going to your conclusion after the first 2 weeks of your research the Railway station PINAR ( dont have Spanish keyboard) The terrain the other side of the train where Burt Reynolds rode away is almost exactly,if not exactly the same as in the film minus the buildings that we,re in the film and obviously the vegetation changed a little… We have driven there and taken photos of the area/via/platforms/possibility of building that may have been there during/after/or before the movie…I had a chat years ago about this with a friend of mine who has researched Spaghetti western locations and done/doing a brilliant job on his Web-site looking for new location connected with Spaghetti Westerns. The backdrop of the hills on the curve when the train was coming into the station spoilt all. Now you have thrown a new theory into the mix. lol. Just to put you in the picture we have lived for 15 years between Guadix and Baza railway stations and walked our damn legs of looking at every train station between and beyond… So much filming done on many films between Guadix and Baza in different films and just the other side of Guadix on the Almeria line…
From Baza/Caniles stations towards Lorca/Almendricos is probably a no no as ive checked them out many times and lines/stations/vias/tracks appear in different directions but to date nothing appears close to ESPERANZA in looks…Notice i choose APPEARS as my word just in case…
I think we can dis-count ESPERANZA near Tucumcari/cattle corner areas…One thing that throws us is the green vegetation in the film scene as we don,t have that amount of lush green even in the winter here unless like you say it could be cultivated areas but back in the 60,s i think not a commercial viability back then( but who knows). The other research i have done again without any leads is the area around COLMENAR nr Madrid We know for sure that some filming was done in that area in the film and again i,ve tried to look at stations within a 30 minute ride but to no avail… I Have not done google earth as not clever enough for that one. To date i,m looking at another Navajo Joe scene of the train running along the bottom of the Sierra de Baza mountain between Baza and Guadix. Not for ESPERANZA but another clue that filming was done around here…Between us we maybe able to solve the mystery… If you come across any areas around where you want new photos to go against old photos to try to solve this then we are on side to try to help. I do have another idea up my sleeve with trying to get some Spanish on the case soon. But until the THE MYSTERY OF ESPERANZA CONTINUES TO HAUNT US. Good luck for the search… Pedro.


(pedro james) #14

Hi Bo… Guess you have all photos anyway but here is my link on Forotrens http://www.forotrenes.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7574&start=600. Page 31. 03/05/2015 cine and ferrocarril espanol. Pedro


#15

Very nice to hear from you @pedro_james !

I agree on the “backdrop” (didn’t know the english word) of the background hills, probably being the biggest problem with a theory pointing out Piñar station as ESPERANZA location, and my only explanation so far is some kind of manipulation in the movie, which I also suspected could have been done in another panoramic train scene background I described above where the mountain silhouettes do not match well to me on Google 3 D.

I think the sequence in the movie, immediately before the scene with train arriving to ESPERANZA, where you see a close up of Joe/Reynolds supposed to be standing in the locomotive looking down at his left side, with a high probability is shot around 1.5 kilometers before (east of) Piñar station. The contour of the background mountains I think matches well, and also the landscape even if it was very green in the movie but “pacheco” on forotrenes has posted a really green picture of the landscape). If you look closely frame by frame in the movie you see poles that seem to be placed very similar to a look in Google Street view from A-308. So it seems to be a high probability that they really filmed at least rather NEAR Piñar station.
OK these observations could just be coincidences, but they are more probable than that the ESPERANZA location does not exist anywhere :slight_smile:

https://www.infoom.se/photo_album.php?ivg=0&type=1&t=&file=https://www.infoom.se/mysite/filer/9801/navajo_joe_gron_slatt_med_okanda_berg_i_bakgrunden_80467.jpg&width=622&height=286

Regarding telegraph poles such as those with 8 hubs in 4 vertical pairs of 2 each at ESPERANZA, I have seen some on YouTube videos on the Alméndricos - Águilas line, but also at picture taken at Bocos de Duero at the partly abandoned Valladolid-Ariza line north of Madrid. It is a little bit exciting that one station there is called Valladolid - La Esperanza :slight_smile: However I couldn’t find any good station candidate on that partly abandoned line.
I have only seen poles with 5 hubs along the tracks around Guadix tracks in different movies, except for 2 hubs on the abandonded La Calahorra Alquife line.

In general there seldom (a small percentage), are 8 hubs in the configuration that was seen at ESPERANZA station, so IF you could get proof of similar configurated poles along the old Granada - Moreda line in the 1960-1970’s that would be an important clue.
But I haven’t, so far, found any in this particular respect interesting old photos or movies showing the telegraph poles along the Granada - Moreda line, which otherwise could have given another clue for estimating the probability for Piñar station to be the ESPERANZA location.
However there must be some railway “aficionados” that can give more information on this item !


(pedro james) #16

Hi Bo… Thanks for your reply… Its really nice to have another person on board trying to solve this mystery… Lets have time to reflect on the latest and keep in touch… If you need new photos then let me know of the areas but as you we are all busy and takes time…
I am looking into another train scene in the film which i think has the backdrop of the Sierra de Baza but it could be just before PINAR… IF which is a very small word with a big meaning i can locate the backdrop again it gives us another clue as to closer to Pinar or Guadix… This does not solve the MYSTERY but process of elimination. Living close to the high plains here(altiplano) the skyline/terrain/olive trees etc is exact image of what they show in the TRAIN coming into ESPERANZA. But to date cannot locate that view which maybe elsewhere lol.
I am trying to get a local Spaniard/train freak involved but they never appear to think its important…
If we can find ESPERANZA, You or I or both will go down in History lol ha ha ha. Over to you for now… Pedro


#17

I just tried (as you did 2015) to ask for help by the real experts on forotrenes.

I have now read a lot of posts there (mostly viewing videos), and pacheco must be THE Piñar station expert since he has posted dozens of photos taken near that station.


#18

A little detail which actually supports Piñar :
The distant background mountains/hills seen at the upper right corner clearly declines to the left, at least if you study the actual frame on the movie.
On the frames seen when the train arrives you cannot see such a decline to the left, but the frame here is taken from a substantially different angle which is verified by the changed direction of the tracks relative the DVD onlooker, especially the right one.

https://www.infoom.se/photo_album.php?ivg=0&type=1&t=&file=https://www.infoom.se/mysite/filer/9801/navajo_joe_lutande_berg_81078.jpg&width=620&height=306

So maybe there are “filming technicalities” if not manipulation that at least could explain the puzzling different apperances of the background hills/mountins in the movie and in reality.

However the other big background problem remains difficult to explain, that is the absence of mountains in the several camera shots of people standing on the Esperanza platform where you see a sunny, cultivated or at least partly green and rather flat landscape. Why can’t the mountains be seen in those shots ?


If someone could show that there actually were (telegraph) several poles with 8 hubs (configuration 4 vertical pairs x 2) along some parts of the Granada - Moreda line around the 1960’s it would be an important clue since that configuration of the poles is seldom seen.


(pedro james) #19

All this really gets the brain cells ( gray matter) in a flap again ) lol… Ok Amigo. Onwards and Upwards we continue with the Mystery of Esperanza… I,m working again for a while but will follow up with any ideas in my head ASAP… Thanks again for your input… Pedro


#20

To potentially complicate things, the number of hubs on telegraph poles near Guadix had increased in 1971 as can be observed in the movie Red Sun, that is along the Alquife - La Calahorra line from 2 to 5 and north east of Guadix from 5 to 7.

So the “poles with 8 hubs” observation from 1966 near the location of ESPERANZA station craves a potential similar observation from precisely that time (1966) to be a highest valued clue.

Any photo from 1966 or thereabout taken of the railway between Iznalloz and some distance before Moreda and showing telegraph poles would be appreciated !

If such a photo showed poles similar to this one, would be very nice :slight_smile: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Poste_tel%C3%A9grafo.jpg
(This example had 8 hubs, but only 6 wires connected, but ESPERANZA had 8 wires)