Disappointing westerns?

Hm. I wasn’t especially keen on The Searchers either at one point but I’ve looked again and found a lot of merit in there. But, even leaving aside my alternate opinion on the movie at hand (which is neither here nor there), I have to say that that is a… it doesn’t read at all like a John Welles critique as I’ve become accustomed to them. I see that it’s six years old and it’s entirely unnecessary to pull up a post of that age, but I’ll say that imho John Welles has undergone a mammoth improvement in his critical ability and style in the intervening years. I wish you’d share your secrets with me there fella, because I’d love my reviews on movies to be as good as yours are now, and Mickey’s for that matter (and I’ve told both of you how awesome I think you guys are for that). Me, I’m stuck at “Reverend Danite” levels of rambling, raving incoherence. :slight_smile:

I was talking on another forum about The Searchers only very recently, on a thread about the greatest films ever made and in specific response to someone who said he couldn’t see the fuss about the movie, just as I had at one point. I’d link to it but it’s behind a registration wall so I’ll c+p here (with apologies for the out-of-context references to forum members on another site altogether). It’s not up to the standards of you gentlemen on here but it’s my dribblings, for what they’re worth:

I genuinely thought The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, or Unforgiven were much better westerns (than [b][i]The Searchers[/i][/b])

They are much better westerns ( :slight_smile: CRS and I have had this exchange of views once or twice over the years).

The Searchers though: I’m not a John Wayne fan either by any stretch, but even as recently as a couple of years ago I felt about The Searchers exactly as you did. As much as I like westerns I’m simply not as keen on those “Golden Era” Hollywood westerns of the 30’s/40’s/50’s, and John Wayne striding about in that f*cking double-breasted Confederate uniform - in every bloody movie, mind you - didn’t exactly sweeten the deal.

But I gave The Searchers a bit more of a try - at least in part out of deference to CRS’s insistence that it’s worth the trouble as much as the wider critical acclaim it receives pretty much across the board - and whilst I’m still not convinced by The Duke, there is a LOT to find in The Searchers. Some of it is stuff which maybe lacks the punch it would undoubtedly have had at the time simply because it’s been done so often since. The photography of Monument Valley in Utah/Arizona, utilized by John Ford over and over, was never bettered than in The Searchers, by Ford or anybody else. It was shot in VistaVision (a sort of early IMAX if you like; that’s a lazy comparison but, you know, sort-of); it wasn’t the first film to be filmed using this process but, again, it hadn’t been used to such stunning effect. Incredible depth of field even across enormous wide frames meant that hardly any closeups were required, but so much could be piled into medium and wide shots without sacrificing detail. And John Ford really exploited that, and packed detail into every frame, in terms of both set design and character “business”.

It wasn’t just the (for it’s time) technical artistry and breathtaking scenery either; The westerns which came before The Searchers were simple morality plays pitting the “goodies” with their white hat, white skin, white horse and anything else white that they could pile upon him, against the “baddies”, who were generally either those pesky Injuns or, in the absence of any redskins, the guy in the black hat. By the mid-sixties the westerns still being churned out were revisionist pieces (A Man Called Horse, Little Big Man etc.) recognising that the Native Americans actually got a fcking raw deal out of the white man’s expansion into the new continent, and that the Good Ol’ Boys of old were often far from the milk of human kindness and rarely broke into song every ten minutes as previously suggested, and that 19th century America was often a vicious and hostile environment. The Searchers is like a sort-of link between those two styles of western, a prototypical revisionist western if you like. John Ford seems to be presenting an almost revelatory understanding that things weren’t as clear-cut as Hollywood had always portrayed, and that, as a leading auteur in that field, he maybe feels a responsibility to portray his protagonists through a muddier yet more honest lens. In that respect, his leading man and protege, John Wayne, was absolutely the guy needed to portray the complicated, conflicted Ethan Edwards. I mean, Wayne is the unequivocal embodiment of what’s good and what’s right, right? In fact, things are only good or right because John fcking Wayne says so, right? Well, no, not in the real world, not at all. A good man can still be wrong, and a wrong man can still learn to change, or at least accept. Ethan Edwards is a deeply flawed individual, a nasty piece of work in many ways. It seems so obvious these days to paint your protagonist in many different shades, and to fill him with doubts and insecurities to which we can relate. But it wasn’t the done thing back then, and it certainly wasn’t done by larger-than-life supermen like The Duke. Looked at in that light, for it’s time, The Searchers is very transgressive and quite dark, made all the darker for forcing its audience to look at John Wayne and realising that he might just be wrong here; like, really wrong.

Give it another go, one day.

Still not a John Wayne fan though, and don’t know if I ever will be. Then again, I grew to love Anthony Steffen, and Dick Spitfire. Sort-of.

[size=8pt]Shhhh… I don’t want last.caress to find this thread in case he thinks my comments relate to a film we have in common (that he hasn’t watched yet)…[/size]

[quote=“last.caress, post:121, topic:751”]Me, I’m stuck at “Reverend Danite” levels of rambling, raving incoherence. :slight_smile:

Still not a John Wayne fan though, and don’t know if I ever will be. Then again, I grew to love Anthony Steffen, and Dick Spitfire. Sort-of.[/quote]

Shit! He found it. ::slight_smile:

Gotta agree with that bottom quote though… and “rambling, raving incoherence” takes years of practice* to hone you know. ;D

*cider

Well, thank you very much. Such nice words deserve a serious reply: I’m too embarrassed to even re-read that review as I’d no doubt cringe all the way through it. In the six years since I wrote that (it feels a long time ago) I’ve seen c.1000 more films as well having read a lot more, both in terms of serious film criticism and literature in general, which I think has been enormously helpful in terms of improving the standard of writing and thinking critically about the films I watch (rather than being a passive spectator). That was a very early review and I’m glad to hear I’ve improved - I think anyone can learn how to write good criticism just by reading the clear-sighted but analytical reviews of Sherpshutter, Stanton and Phil.

I haven’t seen The Searchers for seven years now and I’m sure if I were to re-visit it my thoughts would be a lot more sophisticated. I’ve seen a good number of Ford films this year for the first time, which ranged from the genuinely terrible (The Long Grey Line is a savage offender in this regard) to the absolutely wonderful (They Were Expendable). I find Ford a problematic director, more so than any other in canon of classic American cinema, but he still repays close inspection. Perhaps going back to The Searchers would alter my opinion; recently I re-watched Red River, a movie I had previously felt let down with due to a disappointing third act but was surprised at myself at how great I now find it (it helps to see the ending as the emotionally rather than dramatically “correct” conclusion).

That being said, I must say I do enjoy reading yours and the Rev’s reviews, probably as I could never write like that. If you haven’t read it already, have a look over the Rev’s deservedly legendary review of The Christmas Kidhttp://forum.spaghetti-western.net/index.php/topic,910.0.html, although look away if you’re a Jeffery Hunter fan (they’ve gotta exist right?).

Ha ha John… that review was done nearly 8 years ago :o …which I find hard to believe. Yours was only 7 years ago and you’re not so sure about a re-read. :wink:

I’d like to think I’d moved on in style and maturity, but I fear not. Oh well, I peaked early… although I think my favourite review that I done was for Fidani’s Dead Men Don’t Make Shadows here…

http://www.spaghetti-western.net/index.php/Dead_Men_Don’t_Make_Shadows_Review

The fact that it made it into a ‘proper’ review corner of the database was thrilling, 'cos somebody stuck it there on my behalf without me realising at the time.

Yeah, we have different styles and push ourselves in different ways, but our love for the genre shines through, (despite what SD thought about my loyalty at the time) - and it all adds to the character of this little isle we wash up on time to time to cook a fish.

I gotta say here - having squinted at The Christmas Kid review, (and to get back on task) although it wasn’t mentioned on this thread - TCK was disappointing… but it is almost certainly due a seasonal rewatch - as indeed is Jeff being brilliantly sloshed in Find A Place To Die.

Yes, Brother last.caress, Brothers Welles and Mickey’s are great reviews to read, as are all else’s that have been mentioned - but it is your humourous (and insightful) “ramblings” and “dribblings” that were one of the reasons that kept me popping anonymously into this site for a giggle in one of my ‘wandering’ phases.

Aspire to stratospheric Wellesian splendour by all means, but keep those fuck*n asterisks a-comin’ for the time being chum ;D
:wink:

I like to bump threads.

Man of the West
The Naked Spur
Sergeant Rutledge
How the West Was Won

I’ve grown to like The Naked Spur.

I loved Man of The West, it’s a bit silly, but I still love it.

A disappointing western for me is Un Dollaro Tra I Denti. I looked forward to seeing it for so long and it was kind of a letdown for me.

Anything in particular that let you down? I love all the Stranger films, including Get Mean. Good fun!

That bloody off-key theme for one, which makes me want to kick throats and rip thumbnails and gouge eyeballs.

I also heard somewhere down the grapevine, that Frank Wolff happens to be a fair man. I just wish that it was repeated in the film a bunch of times.

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There’s nothing wrong with the main theme…much better than some of the monotonous shite that the Spags. produced.

And, for good measure, the main theme from ‘The Stranger Returns’.

Let’s round off this Tony Anthony inspired theme fest, with ‘Blindman’.

This arrangement is much better:

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Nope. That fuckawful alto recorder or whatever it is playing that same, out-of-tune four note refrain. Doo-DOO-doo-doo. It’s off-key, it doesn’t go with the rest of the score and it plays again and again and again and again and again throughout the entire movie. Don’t like it. And to be honest I think the movie itself, whilst okay, is overrated. I should like it because it’s sparse and it’s mean, just how I like a spag to be, but… I dunno, there’s something not quite there. And that fuckawful theme doesn’t encourage me to revisit it too often (I think I’ve tried three times now). The Stranger Returns is a considerably better picture, imo.

Maybe it’s Tony Anthony. I don’t think I’m as keen on him when he’s in a more gritty mood (I’m not all that taken with Blindman either). The Stranger Returns however feels laced with a humour which I think suits him better. For me, anyway.

I know it’s a staple of Spaghetti Westerns but it was far too slow. There were so many scenes of Tony just wandering through the town or crawling through the chapel, it slogs the movie down so much, and the only rewarding part of the film is Tony yet again crawling through the town shooting the baddies. Leone got away with it in A Fistful of Dollars because of because he juxtaposed it with the Baxters getting shot up and the Rojo’s looking for Clint. It was suspenseful and well executed. In Un Dollaro Tra I Denti, not so much. I understand it was meant to be a bit more serious, but I think the film could have used more humor and a little more action.

I actually have a similar problem with Un Uomo Un Cavallo Una Pistola, but instead it’s how many scenes there are of people going places. They’re shot well, but it’s just too much traveling. I want to get back to Tony and his shenanigans of shooting people. One more thing, I love the score, but I cannot stand how it’s just thrown around in the movie like somebody slopping paint on a chipped wall. Particularly when Tony’s getting pulled around by the stage coach, the same song keeps playing over and over.

I do like the Stranger films, they are good fun, but they could have had so much more going for them and it irks me seeing the wasted potential.[quote=“last.caress, post:133, topic:751”]
Nope. That fuckawful alto recorder or whatever it is playing that same, out-of-tune four note refrain. Doo-DOO-doo-doo. It’s off-key, it doesn’t go with the rest of the score and it plays again and again and again and again and again throughout the entire movie.
[/quote]

Not to mention the amount of times it’s pasted into Un Uomo Un Cavallo Una Pistola.

And he does at one point, which I think is refreshing for a Western hero.

I think i’d written about this in a different thread, but i was seriously disappointed with For A Few Dollars More. Yeah, throw in some big titles, not spaghs nobody knows. (Like Four of the Apocalypse. Pfffr. Never heard of.)

Really? That’s actually one of my favorites, what’s your reason for why you don’t like it?

It’s always been my favourite of the Dollars trilogy. Indio’s pocket watch chime haunts me.

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I am also baffled by this statement - if it were ‘A Few Dollars for Django’, I could understand, but FAFDM is a total classic, a masterpiece and the film I’ve watched more than any other of any genre.

You’re messing with us, right @tomas ??? :astonished:

No I’m not messing with you.
I found a discussion about this in the old thread, you can read here: The Last Western You Watched? - #11139 by tomas

The main problem was too complicated script in the third act of the movie, which doesnt make much sense. I love the movie until Van Cleef/Kinski showdown, then it just get weird and unnecessary sophisticated.

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