I agree on 100 Rifles. Jose Manuel Martin gets strug up at the start! It has the âfeelâ.
Not much chance for the South African â3 bullets for a long gunâ and âThey call me Luckyâ then.
Iâve just watched âWantedâ with Gemma, and although I really enjoyed it, those SA films (which do get a bit of a slating from time to time have more of the âspaghetti-ethosâ= feel ⌠in my book - whatever that means!?
(Edit: hic 
;D)
Thanks everybody for reacting and coming up with titles of films based on novels
Iâm checking details etc. and the work will keep me busy for the next 24 hours, I suppose
Iâll have to change something in the text, or maybe add a note; I donât know yet what iâll do
Itâs of course hard to define the term âSpaghetti westernâ or âWestern allâItalianaâ, but the definition, or demarcation, I had in mind, is the one made in Italy, by most experts on the subject. Even though there is no official consensus of opinion, to be called a âspaghettiâ or âallâItalianaâ, a western must be:
- a predominantly Italian production
- have an Italian director
So films like 100 Rifles and Shalako are dropped since theyâre no Italian productons
The Winnetou films are dropped since theyâre predominantly German productions
A man called Noon is often dropped (the director isnât an Italian), sometimes accepted (itâs an Italian production and some experts are more lenient towards the âdirector-demandâ)
Films like 4 Dolares de Vengeanza (written by two Italians), Requiem per el Gringo, El precio de un Hombre/The Bounty hunter and some others are dropped because they are predominantly Spanish productions and the director is Spanish
Sledge is usually accepted, even though the director, Vic Morrow, and nearly the entire cast is American; it is an Italian production and the Italians say the film was co-directed by an Italian, Giorgio Gentili (according to them he even did the lionâs share of the work)
Donât get me wrong: theyâre not my demarcations, Iâm only describing the Italian situation, and the specific Italian sensibilities
I can live with them, although I have no difficulties either in accepting films like El Precio de un Hombre or Requiem per el Gringo as spaghetti westerns. They have the âfeelâ, whatever that means.
These spanish westerns are definitive Spags. The others I would also exclude, except Sledge, a bordercase.
Iâm not surprised by the success of Gemmaâs early SW efforts, but Iâm surprised that the more simple One Silver Dollar and Adios Gringo were even more successful than both Ringo films, which looked at least like SWs, which had the Spaghetti touch.
But most surprising is that all 8 early SWs with Gemma made more money than Django in Itlay.
I always had assumed that with the arrival of Django, Nero, as a more modern type of hero/anti-hero, would have been the logical successor to Gemmaâs more lightweight personage.
Maybe he was for an international audience.
I have changed the text a little:
- The categorical 'only two were genuine adaptations of literary fiction about the Far Westâ has been changed into:
'Only a handful were genuine adaptions of literary ficton about the Far West, among them:â
*El precio de un Hombre/The Bounty Killer (based on a novel by Marvin H. Albert) was added to the two already mentioned examples of such films
El Precio de un Hombre/The bounty killer is predominantly Spanish and the director is not Italian, still I have accepted it as a âSpaghetti westernâ. Criteria must be workable, but will never be water proof, so as far as border cases are concerned personal ideas or feelings must turn the scale (If itlooks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck)- in my opinion this film looks, walks and quacks like the genuine stuff, so it must be real.
I found out that this Marvin H. Albert was quite a prolific writer; not only westerns like The Law and Jake Wade and Guns of Diablo were based upon his work, but he also created Tony Rome, that Blue Eyed detective appearing in two films, Tony Rome and Lady in Cement. Chris seems to know his work, maybe he can tell us a little more about the guy.
As far as the relation Film/literary fiction is concerned: some of the films mentioned were (imo) either no spaghetti westerns or no genuine adaptions of literary fiction. Kid Rodelo is clearly a predominantly American production shot in Spain; as such it anticipates productions like El Condor and Shalako. To be a âgenuine adaptionâ at least the story line of the novel source must have been respected. Iâm very familiar with the works of Jack London and can tell you that the Zanna Bianca movies only have some names and settings in common with the novels. Apart from that both White Fang and its predecessor Call of the Wild arenât really literary fiction on the Old West; theyâre more metaphysical studies about the human - and animal! - condition, and the way the two species see each other. Uncas, el fin de una raza could be consired as an adaptation; I havenât seen it but J.F. Cooperâs storyline has been respected more or less, according to some descriptions of the movie. The question is of course, whether it can be regarded as a film on the Far West. Even when you accept more eastern locations as acceptable for a âwesternâ (why not?), itâs rather doubtful if the novel belongs to the literal genre of âwestern fictionâ : I think most people wouldnât classify it as such, just like Capoteâs In Cold Blood or Dostojevskiâs Crime and Punishment usually are not classified as âcrime fictionâ, even though theyâre novels about crimes âŚ
Nicely done, amigo!
I donât know too much about Marvin H. Albert, beyond the fact that he wrote for the old Pulp story magazines and moved on to the paperback market from there.
I have read a handful of his Western novels, but had no idea he created the character of Tony Rome!
I might do a little more research on this guy and see if I can find some more of his work.
Gracias, amigo!
Watched the NEW version of this. Lovely widescreen print but the English sound obviously taken from different sources and a bit tinny at times.
Preposterous story whereby some folk wanna string up an obviously innocent Gemma whoâs forced to kill, and who therefore goes on the run. Then, when it seems that heâs obviously guilty, people start to believe heâs innocent. All this revolves around him rescueing Evelyn Stewart (whoâs blonde again, Phil) - whoâs been nastily raped and staked out. A cleanish, naive, Americanish western feel, but with a few nastier spaghetti elements included as well.
It was enjoyably washed down with a cider or two - but is still probably my least favorite Gemma western due to its overall lack of spaghettiism.
This one did absolutely nothing to me. Way too american for my likes.
Well, I understand that this Americanized movies keep away most of the spaghetti fans, but I kind of like this one.
Just ordered the Thai edition (Triple X Film). It will be my first buy from them, donât know exactly how good are their releases, but the price seems fair.
[quote=âp.pereira, post:20, topic:962â]Well, I understand that this Americanized movies keep away most of the spaghetti fans, but I kind of like this one.
Just ordered the Thai edition (Triple X Film). It will be my first buy from them, donât know exactly how good are their releases, but the price seems fair.[/quote]
Let us know how it is.
I have Arizona Colt from Triple XXX (no English audio, only Italian): excellent image quality and loud 5.1 sound. But I wouldnât expect too much from that surround track: itâs clearly fake, they used the front speakers for the actual soundtrack and added some noises for the rear speakers, such as hoof beats etc. I found that quite amusing, but it occasionally leads to very odd echoes.
The package should arrive with âSome Dollars For Djangoâ and âThe Five Man Armyâ too. Letâs hope the bestâŚ
Its good the triple X DVD, seems like its the correct aspect ratio 2.35:1. But I find this film hard to get through, a bit of a lame SW, though there is a surprising violent moment. It might be the english dub, I think the Italian dub would be much better.
This movie seems to lose me as well. I usually enjoy GGâs movies but this one was way to flat & non interesting.
Yes, a too simple film. There is not much of an SW in it.
At least it was watchable. Entertaining on a low level, so to say.
Means I wasnât bored and forgot it quickly.
The 4/10 category
I wasnât bored, even thought it was quite likable, but itâs a typical early outing, with a reduced SW factor, itâs still rather classic in feel, but (like chuck connorâs brother says) with some grittiness shining through here and there
The Italian audio is fine.
Iâve never heard the English dub, so I canât compare
Thereâs one line in the Italian audio that I always experienced as typically Italian (and a bit odd in the historical context of the West):
When Gemma arrives in town, heâs accused of stealing cattle and the people want to lynch him; he frees himself and shoots the man who accused him in the first place (the original owner of the cattle). The the manâs wife kneels down at the side of her husbandâs dead body and cries (looking up):
âVendicate miâ
Literally: âRevenge meâ, in more common English something like: âTake revenge in my nameâ Itâs an appeal, a supplication, directed at the townspeople (itâs plural). I know justice was quite direct in the Old West, and the old biblical principle of an âeye for an eyeâ was en vogue, but I wouldâve thought it was more logical for her to say something like âHang himâ, or âTrack him downâ
So I wonder what she says in the English dub
[quote=âscherpschutter, post:26, topic:962â]âVendicate miâ
⌠but I wouldâve thought it was more logical for her to say something like âHang himâ, or âTrack him downâ
So I wonder what she says in the English dub[/quote]
When sheâs snivelling over the body she bangs on about him killing for afew miserable head of cattle and she finishes with "You canât let him get away."
Then itâs the hatched-faced old bag that says "String him up!"
After he does get away, wifey bleats "Iâll offer a bounty to see that heâs captured - I want Landers hunted down in every state of the Union."
There you go scherp.
[quote=âReverend Danite, post:27, topic:962â]When sheâs snivelling over the body she bangs on about him killing for afew miserable head of cattle and she finishes with "You canât let him get away."
Then itâs the hatched-faced old bag that says "String him up!"
After he does get away, wifey bleats "Iâll offer a bounty to see that heâs captured - I want Landers hunted down in every state of the Union."
There you go scherp.[/quote]
Thanks
Iâll check later what she says in Italian after Gemma got away. I suppose itâs something similar.
But itâs a very nice detail that a woman uses the verb âvendicareâ immediately. In other words: sheâs thinking more in terms of vengeance than of justice.
Same in Italian
The idea of the town taking revenge for, or in name of the woman, is emphasized when one of the older women says:
âVendichiamo laâ
Literally: Letâs revenge her, so: Let us take revenge in her name
This all makes sense if you consider the different conceptions of the âcommunityâ (represented in westerns by the town). In the West the towns were growing communities, a person could be a stranger, but he wasnât an intruder per se: he could become a member of the growing community relatively easily. In the Italian westerns, the town is often seen as a hostile, âclosedâ community, symbolizing the clan & family mentality of the Italian culture. Itâs not easy to become a member of such a community, a stranger is by definition an intruder. Therefore: when one member of such a community/clan is bleeding, the entire community/clan is bleeding, and justice is -literally - defined in terms of vengeance: "âVendicate miâ âLet us take revenge in her nameâ
Here are two screens of the Italian disc
Itâs non-anamorphic, but otherwise surprisingly good; colours are warm and the image is rather clean; the only problem seems that the image seems a bit squeezed vertically on the extreme left:
[/URL]
[url]http://img704.imageshack.us/i/vlcsnap2010011014h14m41.jpg/
Hereâs the same shots from the NEW disc. Similar - just a tad more image on the left (a bit more of the fellah in the first, and a bit more building in the second - obviously highly important to the story though ;D).
(Itâs my computer that squeezes the images widthwise - itâs actually wider looking on the tv).
![[url]http://img704.imageshack.us/i/vlcsnap2010011014h14m41.jpg/](http://img192.imageshack.us/i/vlcsnap2010011014h15m47.jpg/){kind=link}