[quote=“tomas, post:2196, topic:190”]very interesting list, bible joe, especially that Ringo from Nebraska at 4th - i’m definitely going for this fella in my next sw run
btw, always glad to see Colizzis on someone’s list, especially Boot Hill ;)[/quote]
Thanks. You should definitely check out RINGO FROM NEBRASKA, it’s fantastic, imo. More like classic US-Westerns than the post '64/'65 Italian Westerns though.
I think Colizzi is one of the best Western directors, and after Sergio Leone and Sergio Corbucci my favorite Italian western director. Too bad he didn’t shoot more of them. I’m always surprised that his western-trilogy - which I find as good as Leones Dollars-trilogy - gets so little mention. Maybe it’s because the films were available in different truncated versions for a long time, so few people have actually seen the uncut italian versions which Collizi directed. He sure can’t be blamed for (foreign) distributors butchering his films.
I don’t know how Italian the film is, I guess an Italian could judge it better, but I know that on the film itself it says: Italian. So technically it is definitely Italian, and thus the film is part of Italian film history. Of course, as you say it is also a German film, but the same is true for FISTFUL OF DOLLARS which is also a German film. Maybe there’s difficulty with this “exclusivity thing” where a film has to be either or, meaning either a comedy or a horror film and either from Thailand or from Great Britain. But as we all know there are many films that have many different and even paradox elements.
Personally I think PYRAMID OF THE SUN GOD has Italo Western written all over it, if one thinks of the style first. For me more so than for example Mario Bava’s THE ROAD TO FORT ALAMO, which has more the feeling of a classic US-western. But of course this is a difficult topic, and I already feel like I have opened a can of worms with my simple list, and now with all my first posts here being a difficult discussion, I hope I will not be regarded as the controversial guy.
But I think it’s a very interesting topic, this whole Eurowestern thing, and what makes a Spaghetti Westerns. That’s why we have this forum, and I’m glad that there’s so much enthusiasm ere.
[quote=“Phil H, post:2194, topic:190”]Giu la Testa, Bullet for the General and the like are set in Mexico which is geographically North America and therefore, along with Canada, fits into the wider context of the wild west as far as I’m concerned. Too many westerns cross the border for me not to consider them all part of the same mythical landscape when it comes to movies. Their 20th century setting is another matter but one I am willing to overlook for purely arbitrary and emotional reasons. I can’t stand motor vehicles in westerns but I make exceptions for those set in the Mexican revolution and extend my time frame parameters accordingly.
Haven’t seen Pyramid of the Sun God (heard it was a bit rubbish) but as a Karl May story set in Mexico I would consider it a western too.[/quote]
I think I feel very similar, and according to the situation I regard them sometimes as a western, sometimes not. I should definitely watch GIU LA TESTA again (it’s been 15 years already…), and maybe I’d consider it (more of) a western next time.
You should definitely check out some of the German Karl May Westerns. Many of them are very watchable, and some are quite excellent. There are also other rather unknown West German westerns from the 60s/70s that have nothing to do with Karl May, which are worth watching. I thought “Sie nannten ihn Gringo” (Roy Rowland, '64) was quite good, and also “Ein langer Ritt nach Eden” (Gunter Hendel, '72). But beware of Paul Martin’s “Die Goldsucher von Arkansas” from 1964, which is also an Italian co-production, but one of the most boring westerns I’ve ever seen. This Western was co-written by the talented Herbert Reinecker and Werner P. Zibaso, and has some of my favorite actors liek Mario Adorf, Horst Frank and Brad Harris in it, so I have to blame Martin for the terrible result. >:( The Italian version is supposed to be a bit different, with Alberto Cardone directing some (additional?) scenes, and a new score by Francesco De Masi. I guess it can only be better, than the German version.
[quote=“Bible Joe, post:2201, topic:190”]Thanks. You should definitely check out RINGO FROM NEBRASKA, it’s fantastic, imo. More like classic US-Westerns than the post '64/'65 Italian Westerns though.
I think Colizzi is one of the best Western directors, and after Sergio Leone and Sergio Corbucci my favorite Italian western director. Too bad he didn’t shoot more of them. I’m always surprised that his western-trilogy - which I find as good as Leones Dollars-trilogy - gets so little mention. Maybe it’s because the films were available in different truncated versions for a long time, so few people have actually seen the uncut italian versions which Collizi directed. He sure can’t be blamed for (foreign) distributors butchering his films.[/quote]
Stanton we have a little Database problem: the great majority of sources - Anica archive included - say that Sie nannten ihn Gringo is a Germany/Spain co-production; on the other hand Marco Giusti’s Dictionary says there was also a minor Italian participation specifying the production company (Domiziana Films, Rome). The fact is that the presence of three Italian actors (Pietro Tordi, Franco Lantieri and Valentino Macchi) seems to support unequivocally his version…
Sooo, what’s the consensus right now, or who decides? Are TASTE OF VIOLENCE, TRINITY SEES RED and PYRAMID OF THE SUN GOD eligible?
I will have them in my current Top 20 if it is ok, or of course leave them out if they are not included in the overall voting process, but as of now, I’m not sure what to do. ;D
And sorry for this long discussion (which I’m sure many of you have probably had many times on these boards, now that I have browesd through some old topics and gotten a bit better acquainted with the forum - boy, is it huge!! 8)). But I just happen to love those 3 films and they would technically make the cut.
Well, gaining a consensus won’t be easy in a place full of opinions like this. ;D
You say that these films, to you, are westerns. I say, to me, they are not. Outside of the pleasure of the argument that gets us nowhere as it is clear our understandings of the genre parameters are different. However, in terms of this list, I don’t think it really matters what you or I ‘feel’ is a western or not. We should just let the current status on the database decide. This is probably as close to a consensus we are likely to get.
As such, Taste of Violence should be allowed in and Trinity Sees Red shouldn’t as it currently has a disclaimer on its page stating it is only shown here because it was marketed in some areas as a western. Pyramids of the Sun God has no such disclaimer so should be allowed in I think unless Stanton has a different understanding based on it being a Eurowestern.
Ok, I thought about it, and well, it’s probably the best to keep it as we had it.
Pyramids of the Sun God
We once decided not to count the Karl May films, and I would prefer it so. Even if co-produced by Italy they are in every respect German films, and completely different in style to the typical SW. Just like FOD is a co-production by 3 countries, but it is undoubtly mainly an Italian film.
Of all Euro westerns the Karl May films are the least in which I can find Spaghetti elements.
The Euro-western disclaimer for Pyramids of the Sun God is only not there because until now nobody added it.
And besides Bible Joe, I assume when you have watched 20 more SWs it will most likely drop out of your top 20 anyway.
Taste of Violence
I went back in the thread to the discussion I had with Novvecento. In the end I said, and it was surely not that consequential, he could keep it if he thinks it is a western. Which he did. Taste of Violence was btw also co-produced by Italy (and France and Germany). I also think if everybody who likes this film would consider it as a western, it would easily make the top 50, maybe Top 20.
TRINITY SEES RED
So far I don’t remember any questioning of its eligibility, and others like O’Cangaceiro, Viva Maria or Don’t Touch the White Woman were also counted.
And personally I wouldn’t count Red Sun either.
Bible Joe, if there are no further objections my suggestion is that I would be glad if you could skip Pyramids of the Sun God, and decide for yourself if you think the other 2 are westerns. You already claimed that you in the first place did not consider them as such, but if you know want them I take them.
And again, main reason, I don’t want to change the lists which already have border cases in them. And yes, it is inconsequential, and in the end it is not really important if there are a few films which are not 100 % spaggish.
i’m all for that not to count any of Karl May’s movies
we surely must have here some thread, where we can post our TOP eurowestern lists … and not to mingle them with these
Is there a suggestion of how many films I should watch before submitting a top 20?
I’ve seen 15 of the current top 20, 25 of the top 50, and of course others that aren’t in the top 50.
Can my list be revised later after I watch more?
I feel like movies I haven’t seen yet such as FACCIA A FACCIA and IL MERCENARIO have a good chance to crack my top 20 based on their pedigree, but won’t be able to get a hand on copies of them for probably a couple of months or so.
