The Good, the Bad and the Ugly / Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo (Sergio Leone, 1966)

Tricky

The MGM Special Edition probably. But they altered the sound of the guns and other things to create a superfluous 5.1 sound, which is a shame.
Especially as they did not include the original mono sound.
The new scenes are newly dubbed, and the voices sound different, even if Eastwood and Wallach dubbed themselves.
And they added this Cave scene, which so far is not part of any Italian DVD.

The original MGM DVD must still be in print. It has the original mono audio and contains the 161 min version. The missing scenes of the Italian version are added as bonus in Italian with subs. (But not the Cave scene)

Does the original MGM release include the extended Tuco tortue scene and the Sorroco reconstruction?

Not an official dvd release but I prefer the Leone Nut fan edit version. Original mono soundtrack which I prefer. Eastwood and Wallach’s voice are not used in the extra scenes, english subtitles are used instead. The extended Tuco torture scene is incorporated into the actual film, instead of an extra like the MGM Special Edition release.

No

Okay, thanks for the advice.

my taste in this one goes high now
4 stars!
i had seen this at least 15 times

I’m currently watching this one for the first time, no not for the first time ever, but for the first time in Italian
My MGM R2 disc doesn’t have the Italian audio, and neither did the older MGM disc.

The version I saw is the original Italian print, running 2:47 approx, including most extra scenes, but missing the Grotto Scene
The film definitely works better without it, even if this creates this infamous continuity problem (where do Tuco’s henchmen come from?)

I’m at two thirds of the movie now, will finish it tonight (it was getting too late yesterday night)
It’s a download, quality is (good) VHS, but in the correct Aspect Ratio. Colours are not as bright as on the MGM disc and there’s some print damage visible, but it’s all very watchable. Only problem is that the dialogue (like on the MGM disc) is a bit low on volume compared to ambient sounds (therefore I have to watch it with a headphone). It’s in 2.0, so luckily without those ridiculous fake surround effects. The voices are wonderfully done, except for Van Cleef. He’s dubbed by the same voice actor who dubbed him for Death Rides a Horse, a man with a slow, drawling voice. This worked quite well in DRAH, but not for Sentenza, his voice is not menacing, not ‘cold’ enough now (and think this will be worse without the PAL speed-up!). The Tuco character works even better in Italian. In English he starts getting on my nerves a little (a very little little), but in Italian (with some Spanish added) he’s perfect, the quintessential verbose hyperactive Latin character Leone had in mind. Salerno does Clint and does a better Clint than Clint himself.

Which version do you prefere?

If you mean the Italian or the English language version, all I can say is: both have their advantages, we get the real voices of the three leads on the English language version (especially an advantage in the case of Van Cleef), but I don’t like the 5.1 surround track (the older release had inferior image quality) and Tuco’s character works better with Italian audio. Furthermore I prefer the movie without the grotto scene (I would have skipped the scene at the river at daybreak too)

I would prefer a new MGM release, with the great image quality of the 2 disc release but with a cleaned-up Mono track instead of this awful 5.1 stuff, plus the Italian audio and an option to select the extra scenes and also the option to watch them with the recorded new dialogue or with subitles.

I watched the Blu-ray when it was released, but I watched it in the library, so I can say little about the audio quality (they don’t have a good stereo or surround system, and I was asked to put the volume down twice so in the end I only heard the explosions), but I didn’t like the image quality, it looked terribly filtered.

[quote=“scherpschutter, post:287, topic:307”]The version I saw is the original Italian print, running 2:47 approx, including most extra scenes, but missing the Grotto Scene
The film definitely works better without it, even if this creates this infamous continuity problem (where do Tuco’s henchmen come from?)[/quote]

But that’s not a problem, cause who cares where these 3 guys came from? I never wondered about that before I first read about the grotto scene.
Same for the question why Sentenza is in the POW camp. It was my guess anyway that he was only there to find Jackson (or whatever the name was). I don’t think that the 161 min versions had any continuity problems.

Only question which arises for me with the grotto scene is if it changes Tuco’s character. I assume he knew they will get killed when he sends them through the front door. If this assumption is correct than it makes indeed a difference if these 3 Mexicans are some old friends or only some anonymous hired hands.
But is this in any way important? Does it change the film in any way for me? No it doesn’t. It would be a bit more cynical to sacrifice some old friends, but it is ruthless anyway.

[quote=“scherpschutter, post:289, topic:307”]If you mean the Italian or the English language version, all I can say is: both have their advantages, we get the real voices of the three leads on the English language version (especially an advantage in the case of Van Cleef), but I don’t like the 5.1 surround track (the older release had inferior image quality) and Tuco’s character works better with Italian audio. Furthermore I prefer the movie without the grotto scene (I would have skipped the scene at the river at daybreak too)[/quote] … and the short scene in which Tuco asks for the way to the monastery.

I would prefer a new MGM release, with the great image quality of the 2 disc release but with a cleaned-up Mono track instead of this awful 5.1 stuff, plus the Italian audio and an option to select the extra scenes and also the option to watch them with the recorded new dialogue or with subitles.

Unfortunately this probably won’t happen due to the splitting of the rights between Italy and MGM for the rest of the world. Same problem for Paramount and OUTW.

But it is ridiculous (and foolish) that they still do not include the original mono audĂ­o. DVD and especially Blu Ray have enough space to contain both. I have no problems with all these fake 5.1. audio tracks, as long as they preserve the original.

The Major Dundee DVD for example contains next to the new score also the old score, so that people can chose.

Grotto: I was never bothered by the question where these men came from, but those who mention this continuity problem do have a point. Those men appear out of nothing and that’s what’s called a continuity problem (they also use the term for scenes that just don’t match, like a guy jumping from a roof wearing shoes, landing with boots etc.).

Those questions about Sentenza’s presence occured to me once again yesterday night. I remember noticing them when I saw the movie long ago (Hey, what the hell is he doing here?), but I had forgotten about them. Coïncidences, smaller logical loopholes, continuity problems etc. are part of movies, but some directors are better in hiding them. It’s like problems with ‘forced rhyme’ in classical poetry. It occurs in nearly every poem, but if you have a good poet you hardly notice them, if a poet has less talent, you notice them immediately

Probably said before, but prefer the Leone Fan edit version the best. Uses the extended MGM print, with the longer Tuco beating scene. Choice of English or Italian audio in mono. Not fond of the 5.1 mix at all. And when viewing with the english audio option, subtitles are used for the extra scenes that had no english audio originally.

But that’s only a continuity problem if you ask for every person in a film what they did before. I’m sure you never asked yourself where Frank had hired the 3 men at the beginning of OUTW or where Blondie found Shorty, Tuco’s replacement in the bounty job. The answers to these questions are pretty unimportant for the understanding of these films.
I think it was the other way round. Only after knowing about the existence of the grotto scene people suddenly got the idea there was a continuity problem before, which actually never wasn’t there.

With Sentenza and the prison camp it is more difficult. It is indeed a bit surprising to find him there, and it doesn’t hurt to give an explanation for this, but again, it is also something you can guess by yourself if you think about what Sentenza might have done by searching Jackson. But even in the long version the question isn’t answered how he managed it to become so quickly a Sergeant and to come to this camp and not somewhere at the front. But Again one can find satisfying answers for himself, like he bribed someone.

At this point Leone already had problems with the length of his films, and generally not everything can be explained without the films becoming overloaded with unimportant stuff.

I think continuity problems are only occurring if there is something missing which really hurts the film’s understanding or its logic.

  1. The three men in the beginning of Once Upon a Time in the West are part of the premise of the movie (an element of this premise is: Frank is a criminal with henchmen), they can only be questioned by questioning the premise (and therefore the entire movie). You may read this from time to time (about a film or TV-series): it’s an okay movie, but the premise is ridiculous (I read this about Terra Nova, for instance)

  2. Shorty’s presence is ‘explained’ by Blondie’s explanation for dropping Tuco: a sucker like you won’t ever be worth a large some of money. It’s clear that he wants to continue the trick with another person.

There’s no similar (‘logical’) explanation for the appearance of Tuco’s henchmen, he enters the movie as a loner, not as the leader of a small gang, therefore this change ought to be explained. But, as said, it didn’t bother me, like you say I had never thought about it before. At least I don’t remember this. If people absolutely desire an explanation, you could also say that the reason is sous-entendu, that is: not given, but easily understood. Blondie is a good shot, a dangerous person, so one could say that Tuco asks some help. The Sentenza case is a bit harder to crack. But it doesn’t ruin the film (or part of it) for me.

For me the the scene with Sentenza questioning the soldiers is important not really because it explains why he is in the camp later but because of the rhytm of the film. Without that scene the film goes on with Blondie and Tuco so long that you almost forget the whole LVC character.

I still prefer to watch the shorter version I’m used to. I can always watch these scenes as an extra feature.

Like that scene, works really well for me. Think it helps on both of the things you mentioned Bill, for me anyway.

For me too.

About Tuco’s henchmen scene, it doesn’t seem out of place for me at all. Tuco send those guys to die in the front door so in the meantime he could sneak through the back. They weren’t real henchmen, just a disctraction he needed in that moment.

That scene is not the one we’re talking about, it was always in the movie (and is a great scene)

It’s the extra scene preceding it, in which Tuco hires those men. Without this scene, these guys appear out of nothing, that’s why people call it a ‘continuity problem’.
This scene was not in the original Italian edit, often called ‘director’s cut’, but it was added to the movie on the 2DVD release by MGM, called the Extended Cut